For those of you who wrote negative things to Ema76 about her CS will you please read this.....

[Shooflypie]

because I am really, really shocked by some of the things that were said to her. I am repeating some of what I wrote on the original post on the basis that I think this issue is important.

I recently had an el cs for exactly the same reasons as Ema76. My mother had a 48 hour labour, forceps delivery, severe tearing which led to incontinence in later life (and further operations), was sectioned with severe PND, which lasted for over a year.

She said it was the worst thing that ever happened to her.

My experience was that my consultant took my fear of VB VERY seriously and his view was that a VB would put me at risk of PND and not bonding with my baby. (And btw I am perfectly robust in all respects other than this particular issue.)

I did have counselling, which was great and sorry but their goal is NOT to persuade you out of a CS as some posters assume.

I had an elcs and it was a fantastic experience. And the recovery was fine. And DS did NOT having breathing difficulties and he DID BF while I was still in the theatre.

Please take note of the following in particular:
A significant additional part of my anxiety and distress prior to the cs being offered, was that I was afraid of other women being judgemental of me.

I was so afraid of this I considered lying about the reasons for having a cs, or even trying for a VB (in the hope it would end in an em cs).

Due to a clued up consultant, a hospital psychologist, and a wonderfully supportive DP, I had the birth that was right for me and it has got our life as a family off to a flying start.

I am now very upfront about why I did have an el cs in the hope that it will be helpful to women like Ema.

I really don't understand why having a VB matters SO MUCH to some people that they think it is OK to behave with such viciousness to a pg woman? Or anyone.

Please will you reflect on the experience that I've outlined here and maybe try to be a bit more empathetic when someone tells you she wants a CS.

And bear in mind that a consultant and a pychologist took the opposite view to you.

i'm not missing any point, becka. i was on that thread the entire time and watched her go from 'i have a phobia' to 'i want a csection so my fanny stays the same' so get a grip!

i know damn well it doesn't go away because i've been there myself. had forceps delivery.

but you know, your body doesn't stay the same as you get older and/or have kids no matter what. that's life.

and i expressed the opinion that if a first timer wants a csection for the reasons of fanny preservation then good, put her hand in her pocket and pay for it.

want to keep sparring over peanuts, go find someone else to do it with, becka, because i've pretty much had enough for one day dealing with stuff that's far worse than someone getting het up over FA on the net.

really and truly don't have the patience for it.

You are not being fair to expat.
CS is riskier than VB for the mum and the baby, whatever some people seem to intuitivly believe about CS being an easy option.
Some people will have problems after a VB, and some people will have problems after a CS. No way of giving birth is completely safe.

Qally, I think you'll find that she said she was happy to go for counselling if they made her, she certainly wasn't going to get it off her own bat, and that is why I for one got frustrated. Her phobia may be why she needs a section (and I was, and remain, entirely supportive of her choices about her body), but it is also why she probably needs to talk to someone about it.

I agree with Stella - lots of people on here making judgements abut 'people making judgements' on a thread they haven't even read. I never judged her, and the vast majority of other posters didn't either. People who ask questions on an internet forum like MN can expect to get a variety of opinions, I'm afraid.

Oh, and if you have a look at the end of the thread, everyone sort of made friends anyway

ah, well if it was all about her fanny needing to be kept tight then I have little sympathy for her.

It does annoy me a bit tbh when people won't listen to reason - they've decided what they want and no-one will convince them otherwise because obviously everyone is wrong even though they have often been through it and can speak from experience rather than a pre-conception of how it's going to be.

Uh huh. So repeating here that she "didn't want to breastfeed so she wouldn't get saggy boobs" when in fact she is going back to full-time work in 6 weeks, and others mentioned saggy boobs not her - her only vaguely related reference was hoping she'd be like her mother and grandmother in keeping her figure after pregnancy (shocking of her, I know; I'm sure none of us feel similarly) - that misrepresentation and sneering, even at this point, is in no way bullying or unkind.

She did not ask for and did not want advice on her choice. That's her right. The prissy huffing about it was ridiculous, or would have been if it weren't so bloody unkind.

why is it, that when someone is disagreed with, or when it is considered bullying?

Cant you lot just be nice to each other?

"I know she has a phobia. So? Don't you think that is worth addressing? Her phobia is sadly so great that she is completely blinkered about reality."

Not by a bunch of self-appointed internet busybodies, no. She is in the hands of health-care professionals, who are equipped to help and support her. Bluntly, who the hell do people think they are?! And if you genuinely read that thread from start to finish and thought people were being helpful, supportive or in any way appropriate in forcing an issue she repeatedly said she didn't want to get into, I must suggest that she is not the only person here blinkered about reality.

oh good... bullying and an online psychological evaluation. MN bingo.

i didn't read to the bitter end (did anyone?) but it was interesting the way that ema responded to being told that she and her baby were in more, not less, danger with a C/S. i dunno, a phobia, i'd expect more lip wibble and less 'i want a tight fanny and no saggy tits'. that was the point where i got rather about her motivation.

good luck to her, i say, i hope to god nothing goes wrong with her C/S because there will be a psychological price to pay if she doesn't deal with the issues that drove her there. (can confirm that she said she would attend counselling if forced and would say whatever necessary to get her C/S etc, not 'i'll be delighted to deal with my problems'.)

Qally... i wasn't participating in the thread but i suspect that those who were think that they are posters on an internet forum responding individually to another person's posts.

DT. I fancy a game of bingo......

MN bingo could provide an interesting twist....

I can never understand why this subject always seems to provoke a massive cat fight among women.

C-sections are no walk in the park
Natural deliveries (I assume) are no walk in the park either.

I've had a section. Breech baby, high blood pressure, pre-eclampsia. I chose what I felt was right for my baby and luckily it worked out. It could have been very different. I could have had a natural delivery and it may have been fine, it may not have been fine. I dont have a crystal ball.

Everything in life is about chance. Its about the luck of the draw. Having a baby, whether it is homebirth, hospital birth, assisted birth, natural, on pain killers, a quiet or all singing affair is going to carry a risk.

As women, we should have the choice that when necessary we do not have to follow the human design. We should be supported by medical people in this decision, but also in our decisions to have a "riskier" natural delivery (some hospitals dont like breech births for eg). Our decisions should be supported by the medical professions.

And our decisions should be supported by other women. We spend so much time justifying our decisions, from the minute you get pregnant probably until the day we die. We defend our choices on how we bring our children into the world, how we feed them, how we raise them, when surely all parents are trying to do the best for themselves and their babies.

(And, as a final point, saggy boobs and an untight fanjo are a result of pregnancy not birth & breastfeeding so the only way to stay "pristine" is not to have children!)

Her consultant gave her a section on grounds of fear. That's a professional evaluation - unlike the poster on the main thread who declared that in her opinion as a healthcare professional, she didn't have a phobia. Or is that online psych evaluation okay?

She was told she'd be a lousy mother, asked why she wanted kids at all, told that her mother was a lousy mother, that she was naive, arrogant, wasting taxpayer's money, too posh to push, that her attitude stunk and that she didn't care about her child. She was laughed at, lectured and attacked, and her words constantly twisted and misrepresented. (Two posters apologised, to be fair. They were a bit invested maybe, which is understandable given the subject matter.)

I'd love to know what does count as bullying, however, if this isn't it. I've not seen anything like it here before - thank God.

Because everyone has to justify their choices in order to feel good about them.

Or something.

Next?

well, imo if you don't want opinions from a load of busy bodies on the internet then you shouldn't post there asking for opinions.

If she was being dealt with by healthcare professionals then pray tell why was she posting asking the common man (or woman) where she could get an elective section? Surely those same healthcare professionals, you know, the ones who will tell her what is best for her, could also tell her where to get an elective csection if they agreed to one?

She did not post asking for opinions. That's the point; had she done so and then got huffy I'd agree she was being daft, too. She just posted asking for information on how to get a specific service in her local area. She was polite about the opinions, but made it clear she didn't want that advice - people ignored her, then got angry when she remained disinterested.

I'm not sure what is complex about that distinction.

Well I was on the thread. I did try to point out problems with c-sections- because these were all things I wished I'd known before having my first section (I had 3 - in 2 different hospitals so am rather au fait with the benefits and problems from them- had 2 labours as well).

I still think if you start by saying 'this is the birth I am going to have and the one I am entitled to and I will not have it any other way' - which did seem to be the message, then really you need counseling. Not about your choice of birth but about the fact that really your birth experience- whether CS of VB is ultimately out of your control.

omg, did the op on that thread really say she wanted a tight fanny and no saggy tits? ha ha ha ha ha ha, she deserved everything she got then imnsho

well, this would be a definition of bully...

bul·ly 1 (bl)
n. pl. bul·lies

1. A person who is habitually cruel or overbearing, especially to smaller or weaker people.

the habitually is interesting, unless you're poised to identify the bullies then i'm forced to say that the people who were most pointed in their remarks have not to my knowledge done this before habitually.

ema didn't seem at all small or weak, to my mind. in fact, had she done, i suspect that people who were disagreeing with her 'tight fanny, nice tits' line of argument would have backed right off.

and also, remember that we are All Individuals (yes, we are all individuals) on here. unless it's orchestrated by a group emailing each other behind the scenes i can't see how it can be bullying, these are just people responding to other people...

i wasn't going to get involved in all this and probably shouldn't. i don't like arguments full stop. But I was on the receiving end of it all last night, and i actually used the word 'bullying' when i was talking about it today. that is how i felt just because i wouldn't agree with people who thought very differently, and if that is what i have to go through then so be it because i have never and would never give in to any bully on what i believe.

I just think it is very sad that we spend so long justifying our choices.

I gave up the idea of a tight fanny and non-sagging tits before I had children. I find now after having children I actually have something to blame my saggyness on

anyone checked out moonwatch?