For those of you who wrote negative things to Ema76 about her CS will you please read this.....

[Shooflypie]

because I am really, really shocked by some of the things that were said to her. I am repeating some of what I wrote on the original post on the basis that I think this issue is important.

I recently had an el cs for exactly the same reasons as Ema76. My mother had a 48 hour labour, forceps delivery, severe tearing which led to incontinence in later life (and further operations), was sectioned with severe PND, which lasted for over a year.

She said it was the worst thing that ever happened to her.

My experience was that my consultant took my fear of VB VERY seriously and his view was that a VB would put me at risk of PND and not bonding with my baby. (And btw I am perfectly robust in all respects other than this particular issue.)

I did have counselling, which was great and sorry but their goal is NOT to persuade you out of a CS as some posters assume.

I had an elcs and it was a fantastic experience. And the recovery was fine. And DS did NOT having breathing difficulties and he DID BF while I was still in the theatre.

Please take note of the following in particular:
A significant additional part of my anxiety and distress prior to the cs being offered, was that I was afraid of other women being judgemental of me.

I was so afraid of this I considered lying about the reasons for having a cs, or even trying for a VB (in the hope it would end in an em cs).

Due to a clued up consultant, a hospital psychologist, and a wonderfully supportive DP, I had the birth that was right for me and it has got our life as a family off to a flying start.

I am now very upfront about why I did have an el cs in the hope that it will be helpful to women like Ema.

I really don't understand why having a VB matters SO MUCH to some people that they think it is OK to behave with such viciousness to a pg woman? Or anyone.

Please will you reflect on the experience that I've outlined here and maybe try to be a bit more empathetic when someone tells you she wants a CS.

And bear in mind that a consultant and a pychologist took the opposite view to you.

Each to their own. I was ready for a vb ( although anxious about it) but was mightily relieved to have a cs due to baby being an undiagnosed breech.
I didn't read the whole of the other thread. I found it depressing.People do judge far too quickly. Who are we to say what she should or shouldn't have.

Look the woman is pregnant and the baby has to come out somehow and it is her first and she will soon know how pleasant or unpleasant the experience can be. I just don't think there is any reason to attack her for her choice, particularly as I felt that her fear was intense enough to be classed as a phobia (and yes tigger, I am pretty talented). Either way, there is no need to be unpleasant to a first time mum who is about to find ut the hard way because as i think we can all agree, there is no easy way.

It was: 'no such thing as society...'

The thing I don't get about all this (OK one of the things) is that you can't just have a CS on the NHS because you want one. If there are no medical reasons you have to persuade a Consultant that there is a serious psychological risk. I'm sure some Consultants are easier to persuade than others, but still. It's not something you can just choose. So why the fuss? If a woman is able to get a CS on the NHS, then clearly someone highly trained believes there is a genuine need for it.

I also hate the term "Elective" CS when that applies to people having them because their babies are upside-down back to front with placentas wonky and what have you. Elective makes it sound like you have just chosen to have one, which isn't actually the case.

I thought on the other thread that it wasn't what Ema was saying but they attitude which came across in her posts?

Thats the way I understood it. There were plenty of people giving helpful advice about elective section.

Elective means that the timing has been chosen, that it isnt been done as an emergency.
It implies nothing about the reason for the section.

I got the impression it descended into chaos because the op was not really responding to anything other than words of 'you go girl', and that pee'ed people off. Trying to give information and rationalise a decision, but being ignored.

But that is symptomatic of a phobia, so should really have been expected. I hope the op gets the counselling as well. I missed that part. Did the consultant offer that too?

Carmenere, given her consultant agreed that she had a genuine phobia, and you can get cosmetic surgery if you get your nose broken or a facial feature is causing you severe psychological distress - you're very plainly wrong. On both counts.

Ema came and asked for practical help on how to obtain an SCS in Wales. She was met by a bunch of people arguing against her having one at all. When she was adamant that she was dead set on it, people became angry and abusive. Apparently it's vile, immature, naive and rude of someone not to humbly accept unasked for advice. I'll remember that the next time some officious bint tries to tell me bf is all nonsense and babies do just as well on formula, then.

As to an individual's taxes going on other people's choices - WTF are child tax credits for large families, if not precisely that? I'm happy to pay them, I think well raised kids are an asset to society, but not all agree, and I seriously doubt people choose to have kids as a service to their nation. Treating addicts or the clinically obese is no different, either. And the OP sounded absolutely phobic about every aspect of vb, from the minor and mundane (potential of stirrups) to the risks, and rigid about which fits with a genuine phobia. Nice to see MN being so supportive of mental health issues.

Also charmed to realise that it's a woman's body and right to choose until 24 weeks, after which she is SELFISH and NOT THINKING ABOUT HER CHILD if she makes choices about her body other's don't like.

EXCUSE ME QUALLY I WAS DEFENDING HER.

She came to the decision as a result of:
the events that affected her family
the way that those events were handled and discussed over the years AND
her own personality.
I'm glad ema feels better that she got the decision she wanted, but I wonder how this will effect her baby's reproductive choices.

Tbh I've just skimmed the other thread and the OP seemed not to believe that a Csection IS more dangerous than VB. Fair enough to point that out I think.

I don't think we should hold back from telling women the truth about that.

I think genuine terror of childbirth is a valid reason to have cs btw.

some of us also tried to express concern for the OP to get some help with her fears, because tbh getting a csection out of fear won't solve your problems.

but that was brushed off.

some of us tried to share our experiences of having episiotomies and instrumental deliveries and despite having to sit with legs akimbo - there's just a lot of that no matter HOW you give birth! - and get stitched up our fannies work very well!

some of us tried to point out that many problems down there are the result of aging, overweight, poor lifestyle, menopause no matter how you gave birth or if you had kids at all!

all that was seen as 'not supportive' and 'where are the mods?'

welcome to MN! stay out of the kitchen if you can't take the heat.

expat I am really offended by your post as someone who had VB last year who begged begged begged for a c section but didn't get it and had horrendous experience - kept to bed, failed forceps, ventouse, episitomey, very bad tear that nearly ended up in hysterectomy, blood transfusion.....where is the natural part in this? Do you think this was ok for me to be mutliated FOREVER in this way......the effects are longlasting I can assure you. Don't want to frighten anyone but this is my experience. And if this has happened in your family you would be scared.....I can only have another baby one way and that is c-section............no one could convivce me it worse!

why is this a separate thread?

I don't think anyone was anything other than helpful to the OP initially. People were offering their views and trying to make the op see that CS doesn't necessarily mean safer or pain free, and lots and lots of people suggested some couselling.

However, then the OP started talking about wanting to keep her fanny nice and tight (anyone remember the balloon analogy)and how one of the reasons she wasn't going to breastfeed was because of not wanting to get saggy breasts.

At that point people started to feel less sympathetic

Because the other one wasn't big enough and we need 2 to say the same things over and over...

I don't see how people trying to give advice and personal experiences can be unsupportive.

Like I said before the thread took certain turns due to the OP's attitude to people who took the time to post.

Then be offended, becka!

You know, I don't CARE, tbh. I really don't.

I'm sorry things didn't go how you wanted

But you know, that's life.

There are no cyrstal balls or magic wands and none of us knows what's on the horizon and tbh if you want guarantees in life it's best not to have kids at all.

I've had a shit day dealing with antenatal depression and an SN child. I had a forceps delivery and spent the next 18 months in a haze of PND. I don't even remember much of DD1's first year and a half of life and I'll never get that back.

I would have definitely begged to forgo any of those experiences but you know, it happened. It doesn't matter whether or not I deserved it. It seldom does.

It's not a matter of one person's opinion being indicative in any way shape or form of how another's life shakes out so best get over it.

And in a way, I'm glad for all that happening to me, because it keeps me from wasting time getting offended by random people I don't know on a huge internet forum.

I thought it was a genuine phobia. I didn't read enough to know the OP had mentioned not wanting saggy breasts and other stuff, so apologies for that.

I've had a CS and my body looks like crap at the moment. Saggy belly, saggy breasts, but a beautiful DS to show for it, so who cares about how I look.

I love it. One thread descends into a catfight, so another thread is started and does the same thing

Look, it is obviously an emotive subject. I think that if anyone starts a thread asking for help, and then says "La la la la la, not listening, you can't change my mind, you are all wrong..." they are going to get a stern reply.

I understand that she was looking for practical advice re: planning and achieving an elective section, but it seems odd that people are being criticised for trying to help the lady with the root cause

Stellawasadiver, she has a phobia. She is not going to rationally and carefully consider all the pros and cons, because she is not ABLE to. That's the whole point, and why she needs a section. She clearly said she'd read the research and made her choice and didn't want to discuss it - and that was ignored, as was her saying she was happy to go for counselling, and happy to pay if she had to, despite that requiring a loan. (And she got attacked for being a rich bitch on the one hand, and a scrounger on the NHS on the other. How exactly could she win, there?)

There's no guaranteed and easy way to have a baby, but she has a phobia about one particular method. You cannot expect her to be equally terrified of the alternative - would it be better if she did? If she had NO birth method that didn't make her hyperventilate? Or should she just not mention her fears of natural birth unless she offends: natural birthers, difficult CSers, taxpayers, and anyone else who just likes a bit of gratitude in exchange for trying to tell a stranger how to live their life?

What people were doing was offering advice that had not been asked for, and getting furious when it was turned aside. Why is it people's automatic right to proffer unsolicited advice, but not a poster's to state she has no interest in it?

That thread was vile. I read it all and didn't trust myself to comment till I'd had some sleep - it was bullying, frankly. Politely worded bullying for the most part, though some (plenty, actually) was out and out vicious, but people were still patronising her, ignoring what she said, what she wanted and what bloody business it was of anyone else's anyway, and then primly telling her her attitude stank because she didn't want to know what they thought about what she was or wasn't doing with her own vagina! I'm sorry, but that's flat out insanity - if anyone tried that on me, I would be a DAMN sight ruder. Why should she give a monkey's what anyone though, when she hadn't asked to start with? And why do people think they have a god-given right to "challenge" a stranger's choices, anyway? It isn't like her choice would impact on any one of us or our kids, is it.

I remember a thread a bit ago when someone asked if she should query a close friend who was drinking a couple of very large glasses of wine a night when pregnant. The overwhelming consensus was that it would be hugely officious, patronising and rude, that it was none of her business, and that the friend would very reasonably be furious about any such unwarranted interference. Yet repeatedly challenging a complete stranger who wants to avoid vaginal birth is totally kosher, and her mildly expressed disinterest in those opinions mean she deserves the anger of the advisors? Nice and consistent.

expat....you are suggestingt that we as women should take these problems from birth as if they are normal and expected.....you missed my point I asked for c-section right up until last minute and was refued to be told 'it will be fine' well no it wasn't....it almost cost my child and my own life....and do you think it acceptable that a woman is left with vaginal problems for life as a result......you seem to poo poo this thinking it all goes away......?????????????///

I really think you should leave off Expat, she has also had problems so I don't think she is saying its acceptable, just that its happened to her and she has decided to accept it and get on with her life.

Some women sail through pregnancy and birth and others have a horrendous time, unfortunately that is a fact of life, sorry.