With the best intentions, and no disrespect, do you feel woman that have c-sections havent 'properley given birth'?

[CharlotteACavatica]

Do you ever feel you think that way even if you dont mean to??

I do think the OP was jumped on unfairly. The thread title is a question, not a statement of opinion. I certainly didn't take offence.

I felt, after having DS2 by emergency cs, that I hadn't 'given birth'. I had really high hopes (maybe unrealistic expectations) for a positive birth experience after a difficult vaginal birth with DS1.

I knew rationally that the cs was necessary and that the most important thing was a healthy baby. But irrationally for a long time, I had regrets about the birth and felt that he had been surgically removed from me rather I 'gave birth'.

I understand what the OP was trying to say. I can see how people may have found the first post a bit confrontational. But she explained herself early on in the thread. It's a shame it couldn't have moved on to a discussion about the issue, instead of people continuing to post about how they found the thread title offensive.

Sadly this is an opportunity for discussion lost because people can't let a point go, or don't read the whole thread before jumping in.

gibberish, that's really interesting. My friend is about to have a CS for breech, after 3 vaginal births. She had PND for months after each. I really hope that her experience is the same as yours and she doesn't get PND this time.

And FWIW, I had DS by CS for breech. He was healthy, I was healthy, the procedure was fast and efficient and I recovered phenomenally quickly. But to me, it was a procedure. I felt distanced at the time of the operation and hated every minute in hospital. I think it did affect bonding - not badly, but it took me a while to fully appreciate that this baby was my baby. I felt that I had failed to do something that women are designed to do, and I bitterly regretted that I had not experienced contractions.

With DD I had a home VBAC. I gave birth and it was cathartic. I still feel I did not give birth to DS but now I know that's OK. And I no longer feel as though I have failed in some way - the caesarean was just the way it was meant to be.

(I also know that I am completely irrational to feel like this. I never think that another woman - celeb or not - 'should' have given birth vaginally, and I assume nobody thinks that about me, either. But there it is!)

I see this is still going. I've read all the exchanges since I left the thread yesterday and it doesn't surprise me that is is still going ...

Charlotte has explained her choice of wording for the title. It was maybe a bit blunt but it certainly served the purpose of getting people to open it and read it. Fine. Nobody likes their threads to remain unread. Or for their threads to die after ten posts or so. Personally I was offended when I opened the thread but it was her first posting that did it for me, rather than the title: "Do you ever feel you think that way even if you dont mean to??" It really suggested that Charlotte was one of the people who believes that women who give birth by CS do not experience a proper birth. And naturally, to people who have had CSs, that can be hurtful, since the moment of bringing your DC in to the world (in any way, vagina, operation, nose, bum, whatever!) is so emotional and important. Hence my first reaction was to feel the thread was from a 'Vaginal Birther' (see how I am categorising us all now! ) who felt pity or superiority towards 'C-Sectioners'. This was my interpretation, and I was not alone. After posting I thought some more and wondered if perhaps this was a request for help (despite the lack of background info in the OP) and came back to ask if this was the case. Sadly my question got lost in all the heightened reactions.

There is sooooo nothing wrong with talking about this at all. We are lucky that we have the place and opportunity to do so. Just a little more information when starting a thread about sensitive subjects can sometimes help keep the peace and not upset people uneccesarily.

In answer to the OP I have never had a CS but the women that I know that have had by no means the easy option

I think they gave birth to their child as much as I did having a vaginal birth

in answer to OP; No, I think they must have nice tight fanjos like steel traps.

Oh, that'll be me, then

i had a cs. it was elective.
the most scary thing ever to be honest, and not totally plesant.

And i must admitt for a few months i did feel like i cheated a bit.

But to be honest, in the grand scheme of things does it really matter how your baby got here??? i think not. The fact that they are here, healthy, happy and trashing our living rooms is the important thing.

And now as a result of my cs my stomach is a mess and have no feeling from the tummy button down. so it seems i paid a price and in actual fact was not an easier option

Haven't got time to read through all of this. In answer to the OP, no I don't feel that they haven't "properly given birth" at all. In fact I feel that in some instances they have gone through a lot more to have their baby, as c/section can take some time to recover from.

Neither do I feel that people who have IVF haven't properly got pregnant. And I think anyone who suggests or thinks either of these two things are incredibly ignorant and to be pitied for their ignorance.

I think it's very sad that people were so eager to get so angry & defensive about this. If you think Charlotte has an attitude problem, then surely that is HER problem, and a sign of delusion... not something you should be wasting your precious time trying to fix or bothering to get angry about. There are too many idiotic beliefs in this world to get angry at most of them. The perceived belief from Charlotte that birth by CS somehow made a woman inferior is not valid enough to even discuss, is it?

Although I do admire Charlotte for trying to defend what she actually meant to ask... I would have slunk off and changed my username to something else for evermore.

No matter how many people I listen to and read who say that cs is as fine as vb, it doesn't ever make me feel that that's the case for me. I suspect that there are a lot of women like me.
The OP doesn't make a tiny weeny bit of difference.
Many of us feel shit about our cs births.
Noone can make us feel better just as no one can make us feel worse.
It's madness to attack the op on the grounds that she has that power.

lljkk, you are right to say that we shouldn't spend time and energy on it. I don't bother with threads which are deliberately or accidentaly offensive, but for once I rose to the bait, rightly or wrongly. But I have explained why I reacted as I did in last thread, just like Charlotte did. Did what I said not seem fair in the circs?

i think whatever way you give birth is ok and some people dont have that choice to have vb but the end result is what its all about so however they get here thats what we are all working for

its the same on the whole bf or ff some people have reasons to not bf as i did i didnt produce milk and was made to feel oh your ff feeding bf is much better yes but i didnt have that option i think as long as mum and baby are healthy however and what ever you do is ok

so anyone who had c section had normal birth you still produced a baby just differently to others but nothing wrong with that i had vb but dont feel my way was better i'm just glad i was able to experience it but would probably have said the same if had c section as its all about the end result that counts

bubblagirl no i disagree very much. The end result is not just what it's all about for MANY women. How they give birth matters very, very much.

i didnt know op had had sections! sorry! the op seemed to have a smug tone to me - i take my stretched vagina comment back

of course it matters.. or the OP would not have caused the ruckus that it did.

if it didn;t matter, birth trauma and afterthoughs services woudl not exist

VBAC support would not exist

it matters very much to many, many women

nope - three sections and three gorgeous girls later - doesn't matter to me - despite wanting a vaginal birth no matter what first time - had an emergency section otherwise no dd1!!! With no2 and 3 easier to have elective sections in terms of care for dd1 ( with dd2) and for both dd1 and 2 ( with no3).

To me - no less a woman, mother, parent. To me - I do not need to push a baby out my vagina to know I am a strong, powerful woman.

well i'm sorry but i'm trying to say is some people dont have choice and should not focus on how baby got here just that it got here safe

i understand maybe some people feel cheated i'm sorry for that but when it comes to health of you and baby it has to be done and thats what should be focused on not many people who have vb really know what its like anyway as epidurals are used so much you dont feel a thing it takes that away

but if i've upset anybody i'm sorry i'm just trying to say to people who feel cheated the end result is what matters and if they have arrived safely why worry about how they got here just that they are here whatever has to be done is done for a reason

i was close to maybe needing c section and my concern was however baby gets here is all that matters and maybe instead of feeling so upset by having c section just be thankful baby arrived safely some people dont get the oppotunity to be a mother and would be grateful for that however baby comes

i dont want to make people angry but i'm offering my understanding and support i'm not trying to make people feel bad just saying that end result is what matters as would you want vb if you knew baby was in destress and could harm child the answer no so the end result is what counts you have still given birth to a beautiful child

eidsvold did you get my email? i'm not sure i had the right address. does it have wali in it?

i ahve to disagree with everything you said there

and your comment about vb and epi is nosensical. i know plenty of women, myself included who have had VB without an epi.

i'm afraid the attitude of 'who cares how the baby got here / focus on the baby ' is harmful to women who have suffered birth trauma. the notion that your feelings are not valid, that are not deserving of being listend to becasue they baby is ok is very damaging.

i have seen it and expereinced it first hand.

it matters greatly, and women need to be able to assert their feelings post birth, have them acknowledged and dealt with so taht they can move on

we all have hopes, dreams, fears and expectations around birth and it is very shortsighted to suggest that if what happens is totally beyond what you imagined, that you should not be allowed to feel disappointed/ sad/let down/ cheated

I agree with U lulumama, but.... could it be that the "it's the outcome that matters not the method" argument is a way for some women to deal with an unsatisfactory birth experience?

maybe, but i tend to find that women who have sufferd some degree of birth trauma / unsatisfactory birth tend to be more open to discussing it and understand it is more than the end result that is important.

i stopped talking about my em c.s as no-one listened, and i felt i must be really abnormal, all i kept being told was

you should be glad you didn;t have to go throuhgh all that pushing

at least your bits arent;s stretched

you had it easy

so stopped talking, didn;t ask for help, followed by descent into PND for years.

I had 2 VBs - first with epidural so I was very detached and went through the 3rd stage almost like an observer at someone else's labour. 2nd was with a bit of gas and air then nothing at the end so a fair bit of grunting and groaning.

I didn't feel that I had 'properly given birth' the 2nd time any more than the 1st. Everyone's birth experience is different - some people are so competitive about it!

After I had DS I felt a complete and utter failure as a wife/mother/person for not being able to give birth normally. I was completely and utterly gutted and felt robbed. The fact that DS and I would most certainly have died had it not been for the CS didn't change that feeling for in the slightest ....
I didn't come to terms with my DS's birth until I had DD (also by C/S after a failed trial of labour) ... 4 years later because the wonderful midwife I had was able to help me work it through ...
(NZ have a wonderful policy called "Continuity of Care" where you have the same midwife for the whole pregnancy and for 6 weeks post birth so my MW and I became good pals in this time ... )

When DD was 2 a friend of mine was about to have her 3rd baby. We were talking about giving birth, as you do, and she said something like, "I don't think you are a real woman unless you give birth naturally"
It was like a bucket of ice cold water was thrown over me (and I thought I had come to terms with my two C/Ss) ... I felt sick and awful about what she said and I stopped like her after that.

I don't know what that all means ... but I do know that I could not be friends with someone who had opinions like that.

And of course, yes, it is important to focus on the fact that at the end of the day the mother and baby are well etc etc but that does not take away from the fact that you, as a woman have a primal instinct to give birth and when your body fails you it is a devastating blow that is hard brush off ...

That's a very good point lula. In much the same way as saying women who had a CS didn't properly give birth, saying it's totally unimportant how you give birth undermines the experience of women who found it traumatic.

I've found this thread very interesting reading. Like I said last night, I am very thankful for my DS and his good health but will always be sad I had a CS. The two feelings are not mutually exclusive.

birth trauma support thread

there are links on the above thread to birth crisis and to birth trauma organisation,

i would urge anyone who has suffered birth trauma, and it can affect dads too, to get in touch with one of the organisations.

there are no degrees of trauma, you can have a perfectly straightforward birth and still suffer.. it is not for anyone else to tell you to move on, forget about it, or that it does not matter.

if it is affecting you , it is important and can and should be dealt with.

should you wish to go through your notes with a MW, then contact the head of midwifery, through PALS at your hospital.