Men staying overnight on postnatal wards

[quesadillas]

Hi,

I'm getting myself really worked up about what seems to be an increasing trend for men to be able to stay overnight on postnatal wards. Last time I gave birth, men weren't allowed to stay. But I'm pretty sure that my hospital now allows it. This really bothers me. I found the postnatal ward absolute hell last time, begged to leave as early as possible , even though I knew I wasn't ready, and I ended up being re admitted. It was just a horrendous experience. This time I'm pregnant with twins, and the hospital have said that although I'd be a priority for a private room,there's absolutely no guarantee and there's probably more chance I'll be on the ward. I simply cannot imagine having visitors there 24 hours a day when I'm trying to get my head round having twins and feeding twins, and after a c-section. The woman in the neighbouring bed last time had her partner there at visiting hours and he was a nightmare. Loud, demanding of the staff (for him, not her) and thoroughly unpleasant sounding. I admit this may be affecting my views.

Did you have men on the ward 24 hours a day when you gave birth? How was it? Am I being ridiculous? And am I actually within my rights to refuse to spend a night in a room with members of the opposite sex, given that if I was having my tonsils out, it wouldn't be allowed?

Getting myself too worked up, need to get a grip!

Can you not see that this puts men at a real disadvantage.

Can you not see that some of us feel there should be ever so slightly higher priorities than what's best for the men? Just occasionally, perhaps? Maybe when we've just given birth? For you to place your own wishes and preferences ahead of those of vulnerable women, minimise and berate the concerns of women who explain why you might not be welcome, I don't even have the words for that. BlisterFace said it best.

dancing - Yes

"I wouldn't want to be separated from my family just on account of my gender"

is one example.

The "gender" bit is something of a non-sequitir but the implication is pretty clear i.e. my wish not to be separated from my husband trumps your right to privacy and dignity.

is this the thread Abbey

I happen to think Maliceinwonderland had a point.

''BlisterFace said it best'', that's your opinion.

Okay dancing - you don't want to be separated from your husband. I don't want to spend the night in a room full of strange men when I am post-operative, bleeding, shaken and vulnerable.

Which is more important?

As I said upthread, your wish is totally reasonable and understandable, but not in a shared ward where space is limited and privacy is in short supply at the best of times.

Perhaps it's just me then that's uncomfortable being labelled a sex-offender based solely on my gender. For as long as I am conducting myself appropriately and reasonably, I AM NOT responsible for the feelings of others. I am non-white. Some people (and I've experienced this in real life) are not comfortable with minorities. I view it as their problem, not mine.

I would never go out of my way to cause offence or distress, but I'd be unhappy that my presence had that effect; though not usually so unhappy that I think I'd be prepred to remove myself.

Despite what you read on here, most of us blokes are generally pretty reasonable.

I accept that my view is in the minority, and I feel genuinely sorry for those that have had such terrible experiences (directly related to this issue of otherwise) that it's left them in such a vulnerable place.

You are correct I don't really want to be separated from my husband but at the hospital we are going to that is what their rules are so my husband will not stay and will go home as requested.

I will spend the night on my own and so be it.

It takes two to Tango and I feel it is unfair the way that some men are bring referred to on here, it is unnecessary.

Malice nobody is labelling you as a "sex offender" or suggesting that your own actions are somehow inappropriate. The problem is that the rule applies to everyone including (a tiny minority) abusive partners, sex offenders as well as a man who may simply be a slack-jawed nork starer, have a prurient interest in another patient, be making inappropriate jokes, have a personal hygiene problem etc etc. It's too confined a space and the facilities are too poor even for the number of patients for whom the wards are designed.

It's not about the men (or it shouldn't be) - it's about protecting vulnerable women and babies from unnecessary risk. And it's also about ensuring that there is no excuse to pare back maternity services even further by reducing the demand for post-natal care because its been delegated to families. As a PP said, who helps those with no partner?

FWIW DH is also non-white and I think he would rather be flayed alive than accidentally catch sight of someone's perineal tear or listen to them talk about post partum bleeding...which is fine, because I would only allow him there is I had my own room where he would not trouble others.

malice You would not be being labelled a sex offender. You would be labelled a stranger.....because to every women on a post natal ward except for your partner that's exactly what you would be. Having lots of strangers around over night will make lots of vulnerable women uncomfortable. Why should these women be made to compromise their need for privacy to accommodate your desire to stay?

Yes dancinglorna it's a statement of opinion. I thought that was pretty obvious. These threads would get even more long and unwieldy if we all had to preface every statement of opinion with confirmation that it is indeed a statement of opinion, so let's just take it as implied when someone's saying something that's clearly a view rather than a fact, eh?

And malice, nobody has called you a sex offender. This isn't about you, but your insistence on trying to make it that way is actually a good example of the rationale many of us have for really not wanting men (or any other non-patient actually) to be able to stay overnight. What it comes down to is this: WHAT WOMEN WANT ON A POSTNATAL WARD IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN WHAT YOU WANT. It's a shame you feel unhappy, but the right of the women who are actually patients not to have you there is more important.

Unfortunately, when this right isn't honoured, as is starting to happen with dads being allowed to stay over, is when we start to get mission creep. You have actually said that your desire to stay on the ward is more important than the desire of the women patients not to be subjected to an unconsensually mixed ward containing twice the number of adults it's designed to hold. This attitude, tbh, is what worries me more than the small chance I'd end up in the bed next to a rapist. That a man who considers himself reasonable, quite possibly is reasonable most of the time, thinks his wishes should take precedence over mine when I've just given birth. And that the medical establishment is in the process of backing him,

would never go out of my way to cause offence or distress, but I'd be unhappy that my presence had that effect; though not usually so unhappy that I think I'd be prepred to remove myself.

your presence would cause distress not because of your colour or your gender, just that you would be an extra person in the room at night when it is not really necessary. If you have to spend weeks on end in hospital like I did, sharing a room with strangers that change on a regular basis, you don't need their partners as well taking up more space on the ward and using the bathroom facilities etc

I will take things as I like thank you very much.

I get that (honestly I do). I get embarassed easily, but I'm mature enough (and I think most people are) to deal with it. I'm slightly miffed that the solution to some of the problems (which I don't doubt exist) is to ban men. As far as I see it, MOST men will:

Not present a risk to anyone
Relieve some of the workload from over-stretched staff
Get to spend important time with their children

This is in no way scientific, but those men (among my cohort) that spent more time early on with their kids early on (one now has 50:50 shared residency with his STBXW) have a more hands on role now. Of the 3 that don't, one (self employed was back at work

I'm slightly miffed that the solution to some of the problems (which I don't doubt exist) is to ban men

No, the solution is to ban overnight visitors full stop. And to ensure a full complement of enough properly trained staff to give good quality care to the women who've just given birth.

Muff 'WHAT WOMEN WANT.....'

Believe it or not there isn't a hive mentaility you'd be forgiven for not recognising that if you're a frequent visitor to this site. My wife (and others I'm guessing) would have wanted me (or their husbands) there. Do your wishes trump hers? It's not about me. As I say, I went home (we weren't given the option to stay) It wasn't the end of the world, but it make the whole situation harder (for my wife) than she'd have liked it.

Malice, how do you define 'posing a risk'? It sounds like you're basically defining that as not abusive, but that sets the bar too low. The bottom line is that strange men staying overnight will cause some women to suffer, however well behaved you are. This means all of you, not just the hopefully small minority who'd be outright abusive. You either think your wishes are more important than the suffering of the vulnerable women who don't want you there, or you don't.

Lorna are you sure you weren't born in 2004? It's just you sound like an 11 year old.

It seems the goalposts are moving somewhat. My wife would have liked me there because she was unable to properly look after our first born due to having undergone an emergeny C-section (under General). She tore her stitches trying to get to our baby as the 'gunk' (sorry don't know the technical term) hadn't been squeezed from her little lungs as it would have been during a normal birth.

Had I been there, I'd have been immediately to hand, and would (for the non-medical stuff) have freed up staff to deal with those that didn't have the help. My not being there (dare I say it) meant that staff were more stretched than they'd otherwise have been. To everyone's detriment surely.

Anyway, I can only offer my opinion as I see it. The rules are the rules. I'm not going to change any minds here (I don't think).

I've been here the better part of half a decade Malice, this isn't my first incantation.

As for your post, nobody said there was a hive mind. It is clear from this thread alone that not all women think the same on this issue. However, the post of mine you quote was a response to you saying that the upset women might feel about you being there would bother you, but not enough to make you leave. Which is you saying that what you want is more important.

Your question about which group of women should get priority is the only acceptable way to consider this issue, and I'll happily answer it for you. It's those of us who don't want men there. This is because hospital stays in the UK follow the general rule now that mixed wards are wrong, for a myriad of very good reasons. Maternity shouldn't be treated any differently. Additionally, the reason a lot of women want their partners there is for help ie they need someone, not necessarily their partner. This can be solved with better HCP provision. If we could have private rooms for all, it might be different, but as we don't, it isn't.

I wish my DH had been able to stay overnight with either of our dc, who were both emergency sections, both ops taking place around midnight, after no sleep the night before I was in labour. We didn't get out of theatre & post-op until around 3am, at which time, DH was sent home. After ds1 he was so tired he was probably unsafe to drive on icy roads, ds2 was slightly better as he'd managed to nap when I had earlier in the day, but either way I would have preferred him there that first night to give me dc when they needed to be fed, pass me water etc as I was bed bound.

Muff Strange (but let's assume harmless) men will undoubtedly cause some women to suffer. That is honestly regrettable. It's not that I believe that my wishes are more important , but certinaly I think that my wishes, and those of my wife are (as long as I'm behaving appropriately) are more important than those of others that MIGHT take offence. That's it in a nutshell I guess.

For believing what I do and using my freedom of speech, if that's your opinion fair enough.

However, I am afraid not, sorry to disappoint you. Just a woman trying to get across my point of view that not all men are how they have been referred to on this thread. I will refrain from posting in capitals as it comes across a bit rude.

Malice if you "don't doubt that problems exist" then you have answered your own question really. Why take the (small) risk when it is not medically necessary?

Your wife's and daughter's care was the responsibility of their HCP. This issue is being used as a fig leaf to conceal the woefully poor staffing of some maternity units, on the spurious grounds that men need to "bond" immediately, or else. And it must be true because it happened to my cousin's brother's dog etc.

It is just yet another example of women being treated as second class citizens when it comes to healthcare - we are denied adequate pain relief in childbirth and for other gynae procedures, not given adequate facilities in which to recover from that birth, and now we are expected to accomodate other people in an already limited space because we are somehow not worthy of decent HCP support, even if post-operative. As Muff says, the usual NHS rules about lack of dignity in mixed wards apparently don't apply to post partum women. Which is bizarre, really, because I would rather recover from a broken leg with a man present than an episiotomy.

Malice, you're missing the point if you think this is about 'taking offence'. This is about loss of dignity , difficulty in sleeping with the extra noise (after a labour that might already have stopped you sleeping for 48 hours or so) and above all about the difficulty of establishing breastfeeding when the necessity of getting your boobs out in front of a bunch of men makes it impossible to relax and thus inhibits milk letdown. It's all a bit more physical and less to do with 'offence' than you seem to realise.

The visiting hours for partners are quite long though, even on hospitals where partners can't stay overnight. Iirc last time it was 8am to 10pm and I think my new hospital is similar, so it's hardly that the Dad can't see the baby. I realise all hospitals differ though but visiting is quite long compared to being an in patient on other wards.

Yes I think that's the thread bruffin

In a way it doesn't matter. My children (3 of the little blighters) were all born in hospitals that didn't allow husbands to stay 24hrs. It was not ideal for us, but we managed.

Some hospitals (rightly in my opinion) will allow it. That won't be ideal for some, but they'll manage.

I'm trying my best to give an alternative point of view (particularly in response to some of the suggestions that all men are would be rapists) but it's not likely to be an issue for me as (at 35) Mrs. Malice's child bearing days are behind her (so she tells me)

I don't buy the arguemnt that this is used as a fig leaf to cover up understaffing and allow men to bond. If it can assist with both of those things, then that's a good thing. My helping my wife (with non-medical things) frees up a HCA to help someone who isn't blessed with the good fortue of having a husband who is as all round reasonable, helpful and devilishly handsome as me.