Men staying overnight on postnatal wards

[quesadillas]

Hi,

I'm getting myself really worked up about what seems to be an increasing trend for men to be able to stay overnight on postnatal wards. Last time I gave birth, men weren't allowed to stay. But I'm pretty sure that my hospital now allows it. This really bothers me. I found the postnatal ward absolute hell last time, begged to leave as early as possible , even though I knew I wasn't ready, and I ended up being re admitted. It was just a horrendous experience. This time I'm pregnant with twins, and the hospital have said that although I'd be a priority for a private room,there's absolutely no guarantee and there's probably more chance I'll be on the ward. I simply cannot imagine having visitors there 24 hours a day when I'm trying to get my head round having twins and feeding twins, and after a c-section. The woman in the neighbouring bed last time had her partner there at visiting hours and he was a nightmare. Loud, demanding of the staff (for him, not her) and thoroughly unpleasant sounding. I admit this may be affecting my views.

Did you have men on the ward 24 hours a day when you gave birth? How was it? Am I being ridiculous? And am I actually within my rights to refuse to spend a night in a room with members of the opposite sex, given that if I was having my tonsils out, it wouldn't be allowed?

Getting myself too worked up, need to get a grip!

Malice it's not really a question of 'might' take offence. On a decent sized postnatal ward, the odds of not a single woman there being frightened and/or embarrassed about you being there seem pretty minimal. Be in no doubt about that. If you were staying over in a ward when I was there, be in no doubt about the fear, shame and resentment I would feel about being forced into close quarters with a strange man at my most vulnerable. This thread and the dozens of others illustrate that plenty of us feel the same.

And really, the picture you paint of how helpful you could've been is only half the story. As we've established, it's pretty unlikely that your well intentioned presence wouldn't make some vulnerable women suffer. But it goes beyond that. If you're there, my DH is going to have to be as well. To protect me, because I've no way of knowing whether you and/or any other man there will abuse me. That's fine for me, especially since mine used to be handy in his youth and doesn't scare easily, but I can't imagine how frightening it would be for the women who don't have a partner who could stay overnight with them. I'd be utterly terrified. We're sitting ducks after we've given birth, with our stitched up perineums and bellies, woozy with drugs and exhaustion. I don't make any apology for being scared of being assaulted postpartum. In the hospital I gave birth, a male cleaner sexually assaulted a woman who'd not long given birth. It is horrifying how easily that can happen. Am I supposed to be less afraid of men who've not passed a CRB check?

Partners being there to provide care wouldn't free up staff to assist those unlucky women who don't have anyone, it would just create an expectation that these basic nursing duties should be performed by family, and women who stay in postnatal without such help are somehow taking the piss. This is happening already, there are women who have already experienced it. And the likely outcome would be reduction of staff even further on postnatal wards- after all, they've got their partners there to look after them.

So Malice - if you "behave", you think you should be allowed to remain even if actual patients, who have a medical need to remain in hospital are distressed by and uncomfortable with it?

Wow.

If you really can't understand why women object to this, can you understand why changing rooms are separated in shops, leisure centres, etc? Why toilets are (usually) separate? Why are those sensibilities not extended to those who have just delivered a child?

That won't be ideal for some, but they'll manage.

This is actually quite chilling, malice. Do you understand what 'managing' actually means, in this context?

Not ALL changing rooms are separate. Not ALL toilets are for that matter.

I accept that I've got a different view to many on here. I'm fine with it. Honestly.

Actually, it's not about banning men, it's saying that only patients should be overnight on (cramped) wards, and that mixed sex wards aren't allowed any more for reasons of privacy.

I'm a woman, I don't feel I have any more right to stay overnight with my female partner than a man does, because neither of us are patients.

Some hospitals (rightly in my opinion) will allow it. That won't be ideal for some, but they'll manage.

There is absolutely no fucking way I would tolerate this - I would raise absolute merry hell, with DH's support, just as I have done on every one of the depressingly frequent occasions when I have experienced this type of sexism in healthcare. Trust me, it wouldn't be happening. I would play the religious "modesty" card if I had to, as I mentioned upthread.

As long as women tolerate it, it will continue, for all the reaons Muff has explained.

Not ALL changing rooms are separate. Not ALL toilets are for that matter.

But the vast, overwhelming, majority are, no? Why is that, do you think?

Your assumption that you somehow get to ride roughshod over the rights of post partum patients really does a much better job of explaining why men/non-patients should not be tolerated overnight in this environment than I ever could.

i was readmitted to the birth centre when my milk didn't come through. The staff were amazing. private room and they actually pushed the beds together for me and dp. we were told dp would have to leave if they got busy and needed the bed but he stayed the whole week i was there. Didn't want to leave

seriously. it made all the difference to me having dp there. we had a private room though.

I don't know of any toilets or mixed sex changing rooms that don't have separate cubicles with physical barriers between them!

The Original - glad it worked out. I don't think anyone on here disputes that men/partners should be welcome in private rooms. That is the ideal solution, in fact.

There is the issue of actual physical space. A ward built for 6 beds, accommodating 12. A toilet and bath meant for 6 postnatal women, accommodating their partners, too.

In an Nhs which doesn't seem to be wealthy enough to provide labouring and postnatal women with consistently excellent care, it seems criminal to overstretch it further for no good reason

There are already visiting hours during the day which will enable partners to bond with their newborns

Men being allowed is a cover for inadequate staffing IMO.

Just googled and the ward I was on was 24 bed. So you've potentially got 48 people plus 24 babies (assuming single births). There were 3 toilets and 2 showers, only one shower had the seat in, which I needed post operative.

If say, six mothers and also their partners are all using the same toilet day and night there is also an increased infection control issue.

This is absolutely NOT about what men want or desire and nor should it ever become an issue that allows their sensitivities to trump those of a post partum mother.

Men can bond perfectly well without staying overnight on the ward.

Each bed in the ward my wife was on, was (in two separate hospitals) had a curtain which went all the way around; so it wasn't exactly open season.

Also, even when just visiting there was a separate toilet for visitors.

Quite simply, you're not going to please all of the people all of the time.

Men's desire to be with their DC and partners (and the desire of women to have their male partners with them) should not trump the need for privacy and dignity of women on the wards.

Men (or any partners/visitors) being allowed to,stay may be being used as a coverup for inadequate staffing.

the problem is, banning those visitors (of either sex) from staying overnight/outside visiting hours won't lead to a staffing increase.

My babies health was put at risk, by the inadequate staff. My dh was sent home (we didn't argue, those were the rules, after all), and I was left unable to care for my baby, amd ignored when I requested she was passed to me. When I persisted, my baby was taken away, to let me 'get some rest' and whenever I inquired as to her whereabouts afterwards, I was told to relish the peace and get some rest.

I did not want rest. I wanted my baby. I wanted support to be able to feed her, as she and I both needed. Decent equipment would have helped solve part of the issue (my bed was broken, and so lie flat only; I was post emergency c section and couldn't move). She was removed from me for hours, and only brought back when I had a virtual breakdown following a staff change the following morning. The new modwife on duty was livid at what had happened, and stayed well beyond her hours that day to help me and dd2.

None of that would have happened if I had been allowed a visitor to stay (for Dh's sake, it would have been nice if it was him, as he didn't get to see dd2 properly for a good 24 hours - once he was allowed back she had crashed and was jittery and needed to stay right next to me, but tbh, anyone wild have been of benefit).

Don't kid yourself that this kind of thing isn't still happening. Wholly inadequate care, and incompetency. But making sure visitors don't stay isn't going to magic up extra staff who are actually competent. That gap will not be plugged in a hurry. And so the only reasonable solution is to allow people,to,help the selves. In my situation, that would have meant a visitor overnight, since the staff were too busy to adequately care half the time, and downright incompetent the other half.

Malice I've already said further up the thread that curtains have to be left open for observation, mine were as I had an emcs and 4 blood transfusions, on a 24 bay ward.

The problem with curtains, Malice is that they are generally not soundproof so do not permit much in the way of privacy if (say) you need to talk to a doctor or other HCP without everyone else in the ward hearing. It is also sometimes necessary to get out of bed (possibly carrying a catheter, or bleeding) and I would rather not negotiate my way past a room full of people napping on chairs to do so.

It's not about "pleasing" people - it's about patients' dignity and giving them as much privacy as circumstances allow. Your choice of words suggests you have really underestimated what a regressive step this would be for many (most?) women. Not because all men are rotters (they are not), but because it's grossly invasive and disrespectful to assume (against all common sense and even the NHS' own guidelines) that mixed wards are fine if you are post partum.

And so the only reasonable solution is to allow people,to,help the selves.

And for those who don't have anyone? Or other children at home dp needs to be with? Allowing partners to take up the slack for incompetent or insufficient staff will make poor care normal. Only not standing for it will change it. It sounds like you were treated appallingly but this sort of thing will become more common not less common by having family do the job of hcp.

I can't believe this is happening - wasn't there a big hullaballoo about it a couple of years ago wrt to it becoming policy?

My desire to have my (perfectly lovely) husband with me does not trump another woman's right to privacy and dignity. It really is as simple as that. Mixed sex wards are banned, yet this is somehow OK? Fuck. That.

And who is responsible for policing it? Who is responsible for asking the (rare) abusive man to leave? Are our midwives to be responsible for crowd control and conflict resolution now?

urgh.

My curtains had to be opened for observation too. Curtains are not a guarantee of privacy.

Banning helpers (for those who have them) will not magic up the care needed, though.

I was treated appallingly, yes. my baby was treated worse. She was removed from my care for nearly 5 hours and not fed in that time. That is, quite frankly, dangerous given she was only a couple,of hours old. And the consequences were not insignificant, for her.

How many more babies are going to be put in danger in that way, before adequate care comes about? It shouldn't happen to any.

Your assumption that you somehow get to ride roughshod over the rights of post partum patients really does a much better job of explaining why men/non-patients should not be tolerated overnight in this environment than I ever could.

THIS. It says everything, it really does.