Men staying overnight on postnatal wards

[quesadillas]

Hi,

I'm getting myself really worked up about what seems to be an increasing trend for men to be able to stay overnight on postnatal wards. Last time I gave birth, men weren't allowed to stay. But I'm pretty sure that my hospital now allows it. This really bothers me. I found the postnatal ward absolute hell last time, begged to leave as early as possible , even though I knew I wasn't ready, and I ended up being re admitted. It was just a horrendous experience. This time I'm pregnant with twins, and the hospital have said that although I'd be a priority for a private room,there's absolutely no guarantee and there's probably more chance I'll be on the ward. I simply cannot imagine having visitors there 24 hours a day when I'm trying to get my head round having twins and feeding twins, and after a c-section. The woman in the neighbouring bed last time had her partner there at visiting hours and he was a nightmare. Loud, demanding of the staff (for him, not her) and thoroughly unpleasant sounding. I admit this may be affecting my views.

Did you have men on the ward 24 hours a day when you gave birth? How was it? Am I being ridiculous? And am I actually within my rights to refuse to spend a night in a room with members of the opposite sex, given that if I was having my tonsils out, it wouldn't be allowed?

Getting myself too worked up, need to get a grip!

plinky, the difference is that while giving birth you are in a private room. While giving birth a midwife is present. Once you go to a 4 berth or 6 berth shared room. You are no longer in privacy with your partner, and you no longer have the constant chaperoning of a midwife or other hospital staff.

Also, of course people are more vulnerable at night when they are sleeping. Everyone is more vulnerable when they are asleep/unconscious than when they are awake.

So women aren't vulnerable when pregnant, when giving birth, and during the day time on post natal wards? Is it only night time when men become strange men?

Correct. Men turn into monsters at night. During the day they keep their real personalities hidden because of all the staff on duty. As people on here have pointed out, other peoples partners have sexually assaulted and battered women at night when the lights are low.

It makes me wonder how some people manage to walk along a street.

In practice, when you stand up for your right to advocate for your child, they tend to put you in a private room. Rooms all of a sudden just 'become available'. It is just a matter of speaking to the organ grinder.

Ellie you are just making yourself look more ridiculous by the minute. It has been explained on here by more than poster, its not about men being monsters. Most people dont want any visitors over night not just men, because of the limited facilities and the need to have a bit of space for a breather.

Everyone is more vulnerable when they are asleep/unconscious than when they are awake.

Not when their partner is with them. My partner did not sleep a wink. He sat and watched the baby, dealt with the medical staff during her treatment, made sure I had water and emptied my catheter bag.

There's no way any HCP is able to give that level of care to a mother and child on a post natal ward, and after three days, the opportunity to sleep, knowing my baby was safe, was desperately needed.

Oh for goodness sake.

It is the anxiety, stress and fear that being in a ward with strangers at night, in a vulnerable state (bleeding, exhausted, unable to get up without help etc). Not that I would actually think that I was actually going to be attacked. I don't think that all strangers are monsters who will sexually assault me or batter me.

Could you actually sleep in a curtained bay on your own with a newborn baby next to you, with possibly several strangers to you in the same room? I know I couldn't and I would become very distressed as the inability to rest or sleep added to it. But no one gives a toss about ensuring an in-patient is cared for, obviously.

(And you sound like you are minimising or even denying that vulnerable people have been attacked.)

Most people dont want any visitors over night not just men
However, that does not seem to be the consensus among patients on the wards, so maybe the thread just is not reflective of reality. Either way, so long as I get what I want, I couldn't give two hoots. That IS the consensus of most posters here, regardless of which side of the argument they are taking.

Could you actually sleep in a curtained bay on your own with a newborn baby next to you, with possibly several strangers to you in the same room?
With my partner sitting beside me? Yes, like a baby.

Ok, a hypothetical for those who think dads' rights are the most pressing here

You have a second pregnancy. You're expecting your oldest to be two at delivery, and have arranged that your only local relative will come to babysit. Everyone else is unavailable/incapable of looking after your toddler overnight. Say they're really clingy, or whatever.

But you go into labour a little early and your backup is out of town. Thankfully you and your new baby are fine, no scbu needed, but you have been admitted to postnatal. But daddy has to get home to your eldest.

Do you not think you'd feel even more vulnerable if everyone else was a primip who's partner was squeezed in to the ward?

Let's face it, the above is best case scenario. Now think it through with a sick elderly relative at home, a baby (or twins) on scbu or worse, and the alcoholic partner of one of the other women who has been thumping her for half the pregnancy and is now kicking off with withdrawal. The woman in the next bed to you has ltb during her pregnancy due to domestic abuse, and finds all this triggering, but side rooms are full of scbu mums and mums who had late miscarriages, so not enough of a priority to move her.

My experience of postnatal wards were bad enough, but all visitors were evicted at 8pm (ish, I arrived on the ward at 5 to so DP and gps stayed for an extra ten mins) and it was a relief. I had a catheter for eight hours longer than I should have as the staff were so thinly spread, but it really isn't all that difficult to pick it up and wander round, DD went to sleep and I spent the early evening on Mumsnet, zoned out but unable to sleep.

The problem I had was the next day, when visitors came back in, took over all the midwives time and I didn't get my promised "early morning discharge" until I threatened to self discharge at half past three.

I completely understand how vulnerable you can feel after birth. And that some partners may behave in a way that negatively impacts the other patients. But I will never forget the feeling of isolation I felt when my husband left me to go that first night. I had had a c section it was my first child, I had no idea what I was doing, not allowed to sit up/pick up my dd, and the midwives although lovely were far too busy.

However, that does not seem to be the consensus among patients on the wards, so maybe the thread just is not reflective of reality.

I think it is. When women are at their most vulnerable they don't have the strength to kick up a fight when someone is demanding her DP is allowed to stay. It's a shame we can't do polls on MN.

The answer is better staffing on the wards.

Bluestocking is quite right about Ellie's HRA and ECHR based 'arguments' and also the lack of PR at birth for about 40% of new fathers. I can well believe you've got your way by making a lot of noise Ellie, but it's not because your DH has a human right to be in the ward with your baby, he doesn't. The reason you've been allowed to get away with that is either because the HCPs you were kicking off with knew even less about human rights law than you do, or you were just being too much trouble. Either way, if you two were to try that on a postnatal ward I was staying on, he'd not be there. One or both of us would be moved, because I'd have no choice but to spell out the legal position wrt human rights law. And I'd be at least as much trouble as you, if not more. I'd rather not have to do that of course, because then they might realise he doesn't actually even have the legal right to be there in a private room, but if you forced my hand that's what I'd have to do. In practice, I'd hope you as a bereaved mother who's clearly very fearful of the postnatal ward would be prioritised for a private room on MH grounds. That would be the most humane thing. Ideally a room would indeed 'become available', but if one didn't, your DH wouldn't be sleeping on the ward I'm on.

And plinkyplonks, please don't tell me that you think because a man has fathered a child and may (not necessarily) have been present in the PRIVATE, NOT WARD birthing suite, that somehow means he isn't a real or implied threat to any woman!

I'm definitely going to ask for a clarification from my local NHS organisation as to how this new policy of allowing partners to stay is in line with the policy to not have mixed wards. It seems so obviously in contradiction.

And if this is the parlous state that the NHS is in, then I fear we're nearer to its total collapse than I thought. I really don't want a U.S. style system.

...for those who think dads' rights are the most pressing here
I don't think dads rights are most pressing here at all. I think women's rights to privacy, dignity and security are most pressing, right up until the point a baby becomes ill. If you've lain beside you baby with that feeling that his illness is getting worse, and all you see around you is NHS staff who continue to make mistakes and run around like headless chickens, and you've been down this road before, and in each instance it has lead to placing a casket in a cemetery, you may understand why someone would want their partner with them. Its wonderful if all sick babies can be treated in SCBU, and its wonderful if all women can have privacy and dignity on the wards, but it doesn't always happen that way in real life, and given the choice between the last hours of my babies lives and someone else's discomfort, I have to go with caring for my own, sorry. I wish we didn't have to make these choices, I really do.

The answer is better staffing on the wards.
That tends to be the answer to all of societies problems. More resources, better training, more accountability. Sadly the world we live in does not work that way though.

I would like to know what proportion of hospitals have a policy of partners staying overnight, and whether there is correlation with the number of births (I suspect it could be the busiest city hospitals that do this).

I would also like to know the position of the Government, opposition parties, royal college of midwives, RC gynaecologists and obstetricians, Unison (which I understand represents a lot of healthcare assistants) and the NCT. If their position is essentially that partners should be allowed because (some) people want this (implying that this "choice" and/or resource constraints are more important than womens' privacy and dignity) I will not be impressed.

Also MNHQ how about a webchat and / or survey?

I'd like to know too Duck. A thread can give a distorted impression because of the passion of one or two contributors.

I've missed a large chunk of the thread which I'll go and read, so apologies if repeating.

But regarding patients opinion. My hospital's policy for partners to stay over was award winning. Interestingly they surveyed me beforehand about if I thought it was a good idea which I did I thought having DH there would be lovely. However, no one asked afterwards (24 bay ward so a lot of people) and I would've said the opposite after experiencing it.
I also wonder if they are lumping the surveys from the birth centre / private room / short stays in with the rest. I think if I'd done the typical 1-2 nights on the ward it would've been OK, the longer stay definitely made it worse.

I asked on that mumsnet thread where the head of midwives (I think) answered questions. It was some non committal answer about patients choice, apart from if you are consultant led you have to be on the ward with the overnight visitors, so she completely missed the point about choice I thought. I couldn't exactly go "oh I don't want to be on that ward, I'll have my emcs preemie at the birth centre"

I wonder if it could be clarified how exactly having a partner there will prevent neglect or negligence by HCP

It seems as though this is one of the arguments being made- what could a partner do to prevent these that the mother herself could not?

Why would HCP who are neglecting a mother/baby be more likely to stop and provide appropriate care if a partner were there?

There have been emotive arguments which imply that babies' lives could be at risk without partners being present around the clock post natally- could this be explained in more detail please?

MN threads always come out majority against. There was actually a maternity rights organisation who posted last year, I think it was, asking for MNs help with their campaign to allow all dads to stay over. That went down like a bucket of sick, and iirc they actually agreed not to proceed any further because of it. They were basing their view that women liked and wanted it on one quite small survey from one Trust. I think the number of women who responded might have been in single figures, so you're talking very patchy evidence, and of course there are always issues in that written surveys exclude women whose English and/or literacy is poor so are unrepresentative. MNs not representative either, obviously.

Hmm good point re lumping in MLU with the rest abbey. I can well believe MLU women are happy about getting to stay with their partners in a private suite afterwards.

Duck

Everything I can find seems to show the RCM are strongly in favour of it - they've done positive case studies on hospitals with the policy (links below), and hospitals introducing the policy have said they've got the backing of the RCM (also link below)
www.rcm.org.uk/news-views-and-analysis/analysis/wont-you-stay-the-night
And page 11 of this: www.rcm.org.uk/sites/default/files/Father's%20Guides%20A4_3_0.pdf

www.guysandstthomas.nhs.uk/news-and-events/2014-news/20140619-new-chairs-for-dads.aspx

That last link also says they got funding from the Dept of Health for the chairs, so that would mean the government is officially in favour

And this is the NCT's official policy:
All hospitals and birth centres should provide an environment for birth where the mother and father feel valued, and the facilities are comfortable and clean, providing privacy and security. Provision should be made for fathers to stay overnight where possible