Men staying overnight on postnatal wards

[quesadillas]

Hi,

I'm getting myself really worked up about what seems to be an increasing trend for men to be able to stay overnight on postnatal wards. Last time I gave birth, men weren't allowed to stay. But I'm pretty sure that my hospital now allows it. This really bothers me. I found the postnatal ward absolute hell last time, begged to leave as early as possible , even though I knew I wasn't ready, and I ended up being re admitted. It was just a horrendous experience. This time I'm pregnant with twins, and the hospital have said that although I'd be a priority for a private room,there's absolutely no guarantee and there's probably more chance I'll be on the ward. I simply cannot imagine having visitors there 24 hours a day when I'm trying to get my head round having twins and feeding twins, and after a c-section. The woman in the neighbouring bed last time had her partner there at visiting hours and he was a nightmare. Loud, demanding of the staff (for him, not her) and thoroughly unpleasant sounding. I admit this may be affecting my views.

Did you have men on the ward 24 hours a day when you gave birth? How was it? Am I being ridiculous? And am I actually within my rights to refuse to spend a night in a room with members of the opposite sex, given that if I was having my tonsils out, it wouldn't be allowed?

Getting myself too worked up, need to get a grip!

meant to add - I was desperate for help with my DD and would've desperately loved DH there but to another woman, my DH is just another man and I'd rather struggle than put another woman in a position where there's a stranger so close at such a vulnerable time

a little delicate about their sensibilities

That's so crass. It's a horrible thing to say and is a deliberate minimising of women's fears.

Maybe mothers who want their partners with them are just a "bit too delicate".

Mothers wanting their partners to stay with them overnight is not "delicate" either! But it shouldn't be possible for the reasons PPs have set out, and decent care should be provided.

I was being ironic - hence the "" "".

Indeed.

HCPs should put the patients' care first, whether that patient is a mother or her baby. We should not run roughshod over people's rights just because midwives cannot manage a ward efficiently. If midwives cannot do their job because management will not allow them to do it properly, then they should be filing complaints about their managers. Although I'm guessing if the choice is between providing decent care and taking a pay packet, they'll take the pragmatic decision, and in that lies the problem.

MythicalKings

Are you talking about 'mother who want, their partners to stay, or parents who have the right to stay with a child being treated on a post natal ward? Are you even aware that there is a difference?

I had no idea this happened. I had my last baby ten years ago and this did not happen. I wouldnt have liked it either. However, I do think this is a reaction to staffing issues. I was hideously neglected on post natal ward with my first and made damn sure I went home quickly after my second.

Ellie, where can I find out more about the legislation that enshrines a parent's right to stay with their child 24 hrs a day whilst in hospital? I'd like to know more so that I can be forewarned and know what I'm up against if I need to raise this issue with a hospital in the future. Is it the Human Rights act?

Of course I'm aware there's a difference. My view is no men in women only spaces.

If a child in in SCU then the father can see him/her there. I've already said that once.

I'd also like to know about this legislation.

Wow, now that is a whole thread of its own.

It's late, so I'll have to pick up on this tomorrow, suffice to say, the governing framework is the NHS Constitution. The underpinning legislations are the Health Act 2009, the Mental Capacity Act 2005, the Human Rights Act 1998, the Health and Social. Care Act 2012, and the NHS Act 2006.

Addressing the first argument, the NHS Act requires that patients be treated in accordance with the Human Rights Act which gives you the right to be treated with 'dignity and respect'. The NHS Act and the NHS Constitution say...

The right to dignity includes a right not to be subjected to inhuman or degrading treatment. The right to respect includes the right to respect for private and family life.

Addressing the second argument, there are a number of legal ways you can come at this.. For example, the NHS Act requires that patients give informed consent to any treatment they receive, and that they have the right to accept or refuse that treatment. When a baby becomes the patient, the baby cannot give consent. That responsibility falls to the parent under the Mental Capacity Act 2005. Under that same act, a doctor physically examining a baby without the parents consent is committing a criminal offence of battery. If a parent makes it clear that there is no 'presumed' consent, and that all decisions to treat or examine will be made based on their informed consent, then the hospital will be unable to discharge the patient, or monitor it, without the parent being present. To discharge the patient they have to both examine it and lie and say it does not require treatment. To monitor it through the night they need parental consent, and that cannot be 'informed consent' unless the parent is present and informed of the patients well being. And the NHS Act explicitly makes it illegal to discriminate against a person based on gender.

There are a variety of other legal approaches to this, and while midwives are taught to be belligerent and obstructive, they are not allowed to conceal their identity, they are not allowed to prevent you from speeking to the head midwife, once you have asked to speak to the head midwife, if your baby is being treated (ie is the patient), they are not allowed to remove you from your babies side, no matter how long it takes them to get the head midwife to come and see you, and once she's there, it is very unlikely she will choose to ignore the law she has built her career upon. Not at her pay scale.

As I said many times, The father only has rights once the baby is the patient. Prior to that, he has no rights in respect to staying with the mother. I could see that it could be argued that the NHS Act defined respect and providing for 'privacy and family' but I can't see that working despite the wording.

If the NHS obeyed the law, and their own Constitution, all fathers would be removed from wards at end of visiting times. If that were the norm and in those circumstances, I'd like to think mothers would cut a bit of slack to those fathers who's babies have become patients undergoing care.

"Time for bed." Said Zebedee.

Hi, I am sorry I have not read the thread but wanted to comment. I gave birth to two of my children in the UK, both by c-section, the first an emergency and the second planned. Both times, if my husband had not been allowed to stay overnight, I do not know how I would have coped. The first time, after being in the post natal ward, there were not enough midwives, so I had nobody except my husband to pass me the baby to feed her and put her back in her cot. I could not do it alone due to the wound.

I understand your point but for people like me, without any female relatives able to stay overnight, it would have been even more horrible and painful than what it was.

Hope all goes well with you!

.... I know someone will be asked, "Why not the mother?"

In that situation, when the mother is already recovering from delivery, medicated and in need of sleep, the couple only need point out that she in unable to give 'informed consent' as and that the father will be the person giving consent. Re. Mental Capacity Act 2005.

Surely all babies in hospital post natal wards are technically patients as they are admitted in-patients? They're given a patient wristband and identification whilst they're there, and have to be discharged as well as the mother.

Also, if the mother is present as a parent, is there a need for both parents to be there or will one parent do to satisfy the legal requirements?

I'm curious to know which part of the midwifery training course covers being belligerent and obstructive? Is there a special certificate that they get for that? Do they fail their course if they don't demonstrate enough callousness towards patients?

The 'legal' arguments made above are largely BS. Partners staying on postnatal wards has nothing to do with parental rights - for one thing we don't have any such thing as 'parental rights' in UK law, only parental responsibilities. There is a right to family life in Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights but this is not an absolute right (i.e. there are exceptions) and it is hardly infringed by spending 12 hours away from your child while they are in hospital with their other parent.

Furthermore, many of the partners will not yet legally be parents at the time the baby is on the postnatal ward: only married partners are the legal father/parent at the time of birth. If you are not married you are not recognised legally as the father/other parent until you register the birth jointly with the mother, usually several days after the birth, or until a court declares you the father. In contrast, the person who gives birth to the child automatically has parental responsibility from birth and is always the legal mother (unless and until the child is adopted).

If the baby is undergoing medical treatment only one person with parental responsibility needs to be able to give consent, and even then the law does allow treatments to given without parental consent - and since the unmarried father will not yet have parental responsibility for the child, many of these partners who are staying overnight on postnatal wards are not legally in a position to give or withhold consent anyway.

Post-birth (and during birth) women do have an absolute legal right under Article 3 of the European Convention on Human Rights to not be subjected to inhuman and degrading treatment. Being denied pain relief would constitute a violation of that, but as much as I personally object to partners being present at night on postnatal wards, I can't imagine that reaching the threshold for an Article 3 claim. There is also a right to privacy under Article 8, which would be likely violated if intimate exams are conducted/personal medical information disclosed not in private but that would extend to other women being present too, so I really don't think this is a legal issue at all but rather one of NHS policy. If you object, make it known to your NHS Trust - there are certainly inconsistencies in banning mixed sex wards but expecting women in a vulnerable post-birth state to sleep surrounded by strange men.

My husband stayed with me the night DD was born and the relief that he was allowed to be there was immense; I would have felt very isolated and alone had he not been there. We kept our curtains closed and other couples did the same to no ill end.

The fact a strange man was a curtain away is very unsettling and distressing to a vulnerable woman in the next bed.

It's been said time and time again that privacy after childbirth is essential. Knowing a man may be listening in may prevent a woman from disclosing worrying symptoms to a nurse or doctor. It's an unnecessary extra thing to worry about.

If I'm having an intimate examination I do not want a man a curtain away hearing the experience or listening to questions I'm being asked.

If you want a partner there then book a private room. Do not inflict extra stress on other vulnerable women.

nothing to do with parental rights

I didnt think there was parental rights, more the "rights" of child to have a parent with them and as they will be with their mother its a non issue.

By the same argument, MythicalKings - don't leave vulnerable women without the support system they choose either?

After all these strange men were good enough in the maternity wards (where they are allowed to stay overnight), in the labour wards but as soon as a woman has given birth these fathers now become strange men who are a threat to vulnerable women?! seriously?!

So far in this thread, we've had someone say that they would use their muslim faith to get a private room above someone who has just lost their baby or has had a traumatic birth, and now we have the implication that birth partners have been reduced to 'strange men'. Feminism obviously dead in this thread.

The argument that women would feel uncomfortable discussing things with other men around - well, does that prevent people discussing things on the maternity and labour wards?! Additionally, during visiting hours, lots of 'strange men' aka husbands, fathers, birth partners are around supporting their wives, partners - does that mean women don't discuss medical issues during day either?

And btw - the only shitty judgemental comments i got in hospital were from OTHER WOMEN in the maternity ward - where a lovely considerate person brought her baby to visit her friend in a ward where other people were on monitoring for complicated pregnancies and were worried about losing their baby. How considerate. She then proceeded to bitch about women who were having medical procedures done - including induction and steroid shots (very painful) and laughing how much pain they were in.

EllieFantspoo the father can only give consent for the baby to have a proceedure if he and the baby's mum are married. If it's an unmarried couple then he can't give consent. At least that's what I was told by our hospital legal dept when we had this situation once.

Another thing, on our paediatric wards only one parent can stay overnight due to space. Can be either parent obviously. So this could be for a two week old baby, a two year old or a teen. So I'm not sure that any parental rights type law does cover both parents been allowed to stay.

After all these strange men were good enough in the maternity wards (where they are allowed to stay overnight), in the labour wards but as soon as a woman has given birth these fathers now become strange men who are a threat to vulnerable women?! seriously?!

Of course seriously. I don't understand why you can't see that.

So women aren't vulnerable when pregnant, when giving birth, and during the day time on post natal wards? Is it only night time when men become strange men?

The labour ward would not allow partners to stay overnight. Many have individual rooms anyway. Certainly I was in an individual room for my induction. My partner had to go home at the end of visiting hours even then. Delivery suites are also individual rooms usually with ensuite facilities, as thankfully no one yet thinks that babies should actually be born with an audience of strangers. There's obviously no issue with partners/birth partners staying in a delivery suite.

I was in the high dependency unit after my c section, so arguably I was even more in need of my partner than being well enough to be on the post natal ward. But my partner had to go home at the end of visiting hours.

Partners become a problem when women in the immediate post partum state are expected to rest/sleep in a curtained bay with an unknown number of strangers in the room.