Haiti - F*****g Nestle is at it already.

[foxytocin]

here now what can I do about it?

Tiktok - crossposted - I made a mistake and corrected myself as soon as I was able.

I have already made it abundantly clear that I understand fully about the dirty water/sterilising issues, amongst many others.

But the fact is, so many people have died, and there are many orphaned children (I am going on recent newspaper reports here), that whether you like it or not, at least in the short term formula is going to be NECESSARY. There has been talk further up the thread of matching up bereaved mothers to bf orphans - well, things like that take time, don't they?

So no, I am not going to smite my breast about Nestle sending supplies, as I believe passionately that it would be wrong headed to do so.

Off topic.
foxytocin, it would be really interesting to find out more about you, in particular your breastfeeding knowledge/cultural experience sounds so fascinating.

Maybe another thread, when/if you had time ?

You'd love it where I grew up BE. I remember sitting next to an Afro-Caribbean woman on a bus she had a boy about 3 or 4 next to her and with no care in the world, lifted her t-shirt and gave him a feed. Judging by her age, I wouldn't be surprised if he was the last of a big family so I can imagine she had bf for a lloooong time.

then there was teh time when my friend was having an afternoon chat with me when her 3yo dc2 wandered in from outside, had a quick feed and disappeared again. no embarrassment etc. around.

I only treasure moments like this in retrospect because I know a lot more on an intellectual level than I did back then. Well back then I knew nothing about it on an intellectual level.

Maya women when I was growing up still went topless like you would see in Classic Maya Civilisation. [beautiful]

Jesus when is this going to end?

Tiktok et al you are just using this very tragic situation to push your own anti Nestle crusade (as noble as that may be). In fact you're doing exactly what you're accusing Nestle of doing ie using a tragic situation for their own means.

As Tiktok has said some formula will be needed,procedures are in place to protect babies,most people on here don't exactly think fondly of Nestle anyway so why is this petty point scoring argument still continuing? You're just using this as a platform to push the Nestle message further.

I cannot believe people are even having their grammar ripped to shreds on a thread about people dying.

Oxfam are appealing for any help, the situation is dire,it's going to take at least 5 years of aid. I don't think this is a wise discussion at the moment as they need as many offers of help from governments,companies, the general public as they can get.

Nestle offering aid is a good thing as other companies will jump on the bandwagon not wishing to be outdone/left out on looking good. Cash was also donated I believe( forgive me if I'm wrong), either way food and water are better than nothing. Having a huge slanging match at the moment regarding the ethics of aid isn't going to help,it could even do the reverse.

The aid agencies are the experts they know how to handle aid as managing aid is a huge part of what they do. Procedures are in place to safeguard people going through this hell so just let it go.

And yes I've read the links.

I'm not flouncing, and thanks for the extra info of which I am appreciative and have absorbed; but I feel I have made my points and if I hang around I am only going to be repeating that in this disaster zone, with orphaned babies around, there will be an immediate need for formula. I feel that there is a contingent on here than find that very difficult to accept. Yes, breastmilk is better; But if there's no mum or no breastmilk, for small babies, formula is better than cows' milk. And if Nestle are donating it, whatever their nefarious reputation (and yes, I am aware of that and do understand it), well, I hope it gets through.

MilaMae, you have genuinely offended me. How dare you accuse me of using this situation to push a crusade against Nestle, as if there was some sort of ideological battleground I was exploiting? Your summary of what I have said in the next paragraph is correct: some formula is needed, the aid agencies will follow protocols and we should support them in that.

Ethics are important, understanding is important, and naive 'anything is better than nothing' is harmful - because without ethics, without understanding, and with naivety, children fall sick and die.

That's not using a tragic situation as a crusade. That's using a talkboard to inform people of the issues (on another thread they are talking about sending collected donations of stuff,not money, and this can do more harm than good - see red Cross blog linked to here, and even see George W Bush, who is pleading for 'cash, not goods').

There are procedures to protect children of which I'm sure the aid agencies are very clued up on,people on this thread are very aware of the issues and some formula is needed sooooooo...........

World Vision's Infant Nutrition Policy

Luckily it seems that they have a very strict set of guidleines on how to treat formula donation and how it is distributed. It does state however that

"6. World Vision will not accept donations of infant formula for use in the health care system1 in accordance with the International Code, or for distribution to pregnant women and lactating mothers. Where criteria for the use of BMS are met (point 4 above) BMS supplies that have been purchased by World Vision may be used within the health care system.

1. World Vision will not accept unsolicited donations of BMS and milk products. In those very few situations where the infants cannot or should not be breastfed, WV will purchase or solicit generic (unbranded) formula after approval by a senior health and nutrition staff. If and when generically labeled infant formula is unavailable, WV will purchase branded infant formula, manufactured and packaged in accordance with the Codex Alimentarius standards, have a shelf-life of at least 6 months on receipt of supply, and label in appropriate language and adhere to the labeling requirements of the Code, on the open market and used without association or implied endorsement."

So I am unsure whether they will actually accept a donation of formula from Nestle anyway.

Stewie: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/in_the_news/893917-Haiti-Damage-on-par-with-the-2004-Asian-tsunami-how is a thread talking about what to send - plenty of people making it clear there why sending your old blankets and other goods is not appropriate.

Queen: good link. That policy sounds fine.

What I think is really worrying though are some of the smaller American church based groups requesting formula donations (among other things) that they will fly ut and distribute themselves - like this and this.

Have also found that the Red Cross are not accepting donations of formula to Haiti - Nestle name them as their 'chosen distribution partner' though.

Stewie - it's ok...dont worry, as far as I can see the message coming off the thread is clear!

Queen, it's a hard one to call. These church groups have links with existing orphanages, and have responsibilities to them. It may well be that an orphanage may have difficulty getting their usual supplies of formula.

The issue of orphanages in the developing world is a whole other thread. Ditto getting aid to them that doesn't mess up existing distribition plans.

fwiw, and apropos of nothing, I would wet nurse a stranger's baby in a heartbeat, if so required.

Quite honestly I'm getting more than a bit angry about this thread and it isn't like me to get ruffled by circular MN discussions.

I am appalled at the lack of respect being shown to Tiktok, and the frankly disgusting misconstruing of what she is saying, and patiently repeating, for the bloody minded who can't see further than the end of their keyboard.

Accusing somebody of using this sort of horrific situation in order to further a crusade of some sort against Nesle is downright offensive and makes the posters look ignorant, arrogant, disrespectful and rude.

I have never shouted before on MN but I'm afraid I have to here.

IT IS NOT ABOUT NESTLE OR ANY OTHER BIG COMPANY IT IS ABOUT WHAT HAS BEEN SHOWN TIME AND TIME AGAIN TO SAVE CHILDREN'S LIVES.

I'm sorry that people find this so hard to grasp but please stop accusing people like Tiktok of having an agenda because it is getting embarrassing now.

Oh and you know what is noble about Tiktok MilaMae is that she puts up with offensive crap thrown at her by posters like you and yet she continues to explain patiently and kindly.

She does so because she really knows what she is talking about and she really cares what she is talking about.

Just to spell it out as it seems so hard to get, she is not talking about Nestle per se. She is not even (gasp) talking about formula per se.

She is talking about the proven, shown over time best solution for the actual people involved. It is actually quite simple really.

Aw, Beachcomber, thanks....but I am not always patient and kind, you know!

I am not patient and kind all the time eithr Beachcomber but I think you have noticed taht for yourself.

Didn't mean to leave you out of the 'patient and kind' stuff foxy but couldn't remember your name and was half bathing children so didn't take the time to look up the thread!

Tiktok you're so welcome. You take so much crap on here and I would hate to think that it would make you decide to give MN a rest because what you do is so important.

Yawn-we all know the proven best over time solution Beachcomber that is why this thread is so irritating for many.

People are simply saying some formula WILL be needed so Nestle's donation to a reputable aid agency is a good thing. If nothing else it will encourage other companies to make donations(hopefully cash). If the aid agencies don't want the sodding Nestle formula they won't use it. They are experts and have procedures in place. Not exactly a problem is it?

We don't need to be patronised or lectured which is consistently happening by posters showing a great deal of arrogance and disrespect (if we're going to go down that alley).Consistently different posters have made valid points only to have link upon link,paragraph upon paragraph on the evils of Nestle. So I'm going to shout now WE ALL KNOW THE TRUTH ABOUT NESTLE, WE ALL RESPECT THE NEED FOR PROCEDURES.

So once again what is the point exactly of this thread if it isn't simply for Nestle bashing which is totally pointless as I don't think there are any Nestle fans to be found on Mumsnet at all?

Incidently I don't think posters who continually ignore valid points and post condescending and patronising posts in retaliation are kind or patient to be frank just simply arrogant.

We all know the need for procedures,we all respect the need for procedures so what exactly is the need for all the patronising lectures and indeed this thread if it isn't to use the current situation to berate Nestle.