Haiti - F*****g Nestle is at it already.

[foxytocin]

here now what can I do about it?

Imagine this hypothetical:

Developing country is hit by a huge catastophe, say, an earthquake. the people need a certain drug to keep their children alive. It's a drug which is widely used in the developed world, with very few adverse effects. People in the developed world understand how to use it, understand its limitations and its benefits. People in the developed world have grown up with the drug, it's part of their culture and they find it hard to imagine life without it or how it could cause any problems, because here it doesn't cause many.

But, in the developing country, there are problems:

• no-one know how to use it
• they don't understand anything about it
• and most importantly, in this country, it cause infant mortality. Which it does not in, say, the UK

Further, in this developing country, there is a medicinal herb which cures the same life-threatening disease illness the commercial drug is designed for. In the west, the herb is not prevalent and people find it hard to believe it could be as efficient as the commercial drug.

But in the developing country, everyone knows how to find the herb and use it, they have grown up with it and it is perfectly abundant. And free.

Even in a crisis situation, the herb remains abundant. Not everyone can find it, but the people who do know how to find it are often willing to share their herb with those in need.

Even if there are people who don't know how to find the herb, they can be told quickly and they understand without complex maps.

The herb saves lives. Lots and lots of lives. In fact, almost everyone who has access to the herb lives.

The commercial drugn, which is so efficient and useful in the UK does not save lives in this country. It kills babies and toddlers.

Not just in the immediate aftermath of the crisis, but it is highly addictive too. Once people try the commercial drug, they prefer it to the herb. It is rare for people to go back to the natural herb once they have been taking the commercial drug for a bit. And all the problems the commercial drug can bring in its wake continue for the duration of use. So even months after the crisis passes, children and babies can die from complications arising for use of the comercial drug.

If the commercial drug is widely available, knowledge of the herb can die out very fast. People don't pass on their experience and knowledge of the drug to their children, so soon, the herb is sidelined.

The drug company has a long history of marketing aggressively to people who have severe, adverse reactions to their drug. They always rest on the fact that in the west, their drug is a harmless and helpful.

Moral dilemma:
do you allow the drug company to drop off free samples of the drug at clinics all across the country?

round of applause for SchrodingersSexKitten!

Excellent post SSK, but not as easy as that 1,2,3 especially when you add water pollution, disease, AIDS/HIV etc... and lack of boobies to demand (not sure of the boobs, but a possibility).

Great post SSK.

Tiktok, Foxytocin - crikey, I'd be banging my head repeatedly off the nearest wall if I was you. Hats off to you for your boundless patience and fortitude.

Schrodinger - good analogy

Threads like these are not a macabre way of just passing the day as some posters have alleged, the situation in Haiti is incredibly complex and this is clearly raising awareness of it so I wouldn't regard it as a waste of time.

LittleMrsHappy, your post on Mon 18-Jan-10 20:39:36 was clear. You brought up Abbott then, along with a lot of other companies, with the implication that since they are large companies, that if in my opinion they should be stopped from donating.

I stated following that I had no issue with Abbott donating unbranded formula. They make Similac (instead of Enfamil like I posted). I was not addressing other companies because this thread is not about other forms of donation, just formula donation.

I mentioned how easy it is to 'make' an unbranded formula - by printing a plain logo.

yoour post at Tue 19-Jan-10 08:37:27 makes little sense. But.... I think I got some of it now.

you are familiar with Enfamil because Enfamil AR is sold in the UK for Reflux. So you said that basic formula is what Haiti needs. Erm, enfamil also makes basic formula. Similac branding also has 'specialist' formulas too like Enfamil does. In the UK we just don't get Similac though.

You then seem to say that you still can see the point of removing branding from donated formula. IS that what you really meant? if so then words fail me. As I can't see how come people who are trained in disaster relief, have attended disasters and then go on to review the outcomes to see how they can improve things, actually know less than you and a few other mumsnetters about infant feeding in disaster areas.

YOu also mention coca cola, why? no one said they couldn't donate. no one said mulinationals couldn't donate. Let's hope they donate wisely though.

yo said: "Im actually agreeing to what you are saying," really? gee thanks - which part?

"but their is anomalies that need to considered very deeply," really? which part?

"when it comes to the5s 5ss4e and I am putting a different view on the matter, its not ridiculous by any stretch off the imagination to do so." I can't say this part makes much sense to me, but yes you have a view in the matter and you are free to express them.

PS the links about Nestle's behavior were not aimed at you or anyone in particular. iirc several posters said they knew that nestle's behaved outrageously in Africa but that this isn't Africa.

small clarification: Similac (Abbott) makes basic and 'specialist formula too.

A lot of companies make branded and generic foods MrsHappy. Kelloggs even uses it as a marketing tool that it makes no generic (supermarket label) breakfast cereals, hinting that others, probably Nestle does. there is then, no stretch of the imagination that they can all make unbranded (generic) formula.

on another note, in countries like Haiti, it is safer for babies to be exclusively breastfed by their HIV+ mothers than it is to be given any FF.

yes, the 1.5 mo of exclusive bfing relates to babies being given teas, juice and mush.

thank you for all the 'thank yous for this thread. knowing that you and others have been informed and made aware has made it worthwhile. remember, we couldn't do it without the dissenters questionings.

i just finished reading the second half of your last post.

Did you really mean to make it personal? I mean, quoting, what you describe as 'C&P' is a legitimate skill in writing. It saves the lurkers and posters here from having to read the whole document to find the quote which is buried in this case 2/3 down the article.

It is sensitive on message boards to not flame people about their grammar sentence structure and spelling for lots of reasons. (I post many times with a child on my knee as do many MNers so sometimes what we say is not clear teh first time round.) For a host of other reasons like this I refrain from commenting on poster's spelling and diction. Mine ain't perfect I can tell ya, but if we were start to pull each other on grammar and diction, well, I'd slaughter ya.

And I would never do it because it is a sign that I am feeling threatened by the pixels on a screen. So I know at that point to step away from the keyboard and go have a rethink.

PS I hope you understand that I have no problem with Abbot donating pharmaceuticals. If they donate formula then let them donate unbranded formula. T'is all I was hoping to say earlier.

A few posters bring up 'putting babies onto dry boobs'. Compelling imagery. But, lots of women in haiti are lactating. their boobs aren't 'dry'. If you are feeding currently a toddler, you can easily feed a baby under 6 months. What would you suggest relief workers do with an orphaned baby and a mother whose baby has died in the earthquake?

Not pair them up because the mum might transmit HIV to the baby? Or Don't take your chances that she is HIV- and give formula which is a bigger killer in these societies than is HIV?

I really feel like this thread needs to be killed because it has lost its focus. We are not getting into lots of suppositions because a few posters can't get their heads round unbranded formula.

erm, correction, We are now getting into a lot of suppostions....

a typo. but it can lead to genuine confusion.

for the record I would just like to say that I do get what is being said on this thread - I'm not stupid, I understand fully the wider issues here. I understand about the need for clean water, I understand the literacy issues, I understand how multinationals work within the framework of capitalism. I get it.

But if baby milk is being distributed in the short term to those that truly need it under the correct protocol then surely it is ok in the short term for those that really need it

Yes, bf is entrenched in this culture but please can you also accept that it's not always going to be possible right now under the circumstances.

I think this thread has totally gone off topic - the OP asked what could be done (in light of the fact that Nestle were sending products) not "why is this being done and why is it wrong"

but hey it's gone 2 in the morning and I'm probably digging myself into a deeper hole. I've said enough.

"when it comes to the5s 5ss4e and I am putting a different view on the matter, its not ridiculous by any stretch off the imagination to do so." I can't say this part makes much sense to me, but yes you have a view in the matter and you are free to express them.

Erm, Yes this doesnt make sense, but wasn't the question I asked! or are we just trying to waggle our way out of it! and you trying to blame me for your so called, Im trying to look more intelligent than you! in your mature behaviour!

I am actually agreeing with what was said until that point in the thread which was way back on page 8 or something!! and I was putting a different view to the thread, and one that was so ignorant to peoples NEEDS and not ideals! Anybody with half a brain will know BF is a priority, BUT as I have said is not as simple as you and others are making it out to be!!!!

I will put my posts in layman terms for you, as you simply cannot see from all the posts that I was asking questions to posts and from other posters, all of the below was said amongst the posts contribute to this point and this is the outcome from them!

COCA COLA, was brought into it, as you and others said that only clear labels should go in, and should be like "sainsburys" (which is still a well known label) as Nestle were trying to make money from the disaster, I then sited, some of the donations made from these companies, and said that in someway or another they will be making a buck! and that should all these companies go in with clear labels, as if its going to be one rule for one and other rule for another!

I also said the main problem here is the word NESTLE and its connotations! as up until that point it was assumed that nestle was giving out formula!

If your going to C&P a post then make sure you say that it is, as it does nothing for a reputation, in copying pother persons articles and passing them off as your own, and doesn't really do you any favour in trying t look intelligent tbh (as many have said about you and others insightfulness to the topic in hand)! its misleading and wrong morally! Anybody can C&P posts to a thread, but its understanding them and being articulate enough to pass your own comments on the matter. Its academic dishonestly, plagiarism and copyright infringement

you also said you will slaughter me for my English writing skills, so will you slaughter me for having a learning disability or should I be made to start a post with, I am dyslexic, so excuse the lack of writing abilities?! as simply that would be demoralising, or just accept that people have a learning disability or can not understand basic punctuation, spelling etc...!

You never also answered my question, their is a difference between a HIV MOTHER breastfeeding her &own* child, with her own antibodies to the virus that that off a HIV/WETNURSE/RE LACTATE who has a different strain and antibodies to the mothers!

Yes we are getting into alot of suppositions, but still you fail to acknowledge anybody's points to this thread, as thinking you are more in the know, that others, when it not the case at all!

MissWooWoo

Misswoowoo I agree.

and Yes my posts has errors, many in fact, At least I can say this!

I'm confused - are LittleMrsHappy and MissWooWoo one and the same?

Or has my computer lost the plot and is displaying wrong poster information?

As it looks like LittleMrsHappy has signed off her post of 08:32:15 as MissWooWoo and then as LittleMrsHappy at 08:36:46 agreed with MWW

No I am not MissWOOWOO,

I was putting I agree with misswoowoo, but got interrupted by ds's. and pressed send before finishing.

Ok sorry it's too early for my brain to have engaged

and I am not LittleMrsHappy, although wouldn't mind being someone else this morning, especially someone who's had more than 4 hours broken sleep

it's been a long night for lots of people by the looks of it!

see, the learning disability of another poster of which I don't know is another reason why I would never flame anyone for their writing skills. just in case. but hey! you commented on my grammar and diction first, and people who in glass houses and all that...

I can't say I have read your last post (scanned it though) and I will leave it there. I didn't set out to upset you.

Cote d'Azur - you posted several posts ago as if I was somehow suggesting that relactation involved forcing starving women to put babies to dry breasts in case some milk came out.

This is not the case. You can read the ptotocols about this - they're on the web and they are linked to on this thread.

Relacation is one option among several to support breastfeeding in a disaster zone. It includes supporting a mother to bf again if she and her baby have been separated; it includes supporting a female relative to bf again if the baby's mother has died or is missing.

Real starvation (people dying of hunger - just to make sure we are talking about the same thing) is only a very rare complication post-disaster. Serious hunger, lack of clean water, fear of starvation - much more common. Starvation is not an issue in Haiti and it would be a terrible indictment of the agencies if it came to that. But if it did come to people literally dying, I am pretty confident no aid worker is going to insist on a baby being cared for by a woman in that state.

Obviously when it comes to wet nursing, the issue of HIV/AIDS (mentioned by LittleMrsHappy) is going to be taken into account - but although Haiti has a serious health issue with HIV/AIDS it is nothing like as prevalent as in, say, Zimbabwe. It may well be possible for mothers to wet nurse other babies - I don't know what measures will be taken to make this safe, but HIV/AIDS is dealt with in the protocols for supporting bf.

I liked SSK's post a lot - good analogy!

i never commented on your grammar either, just your C&P.

Thanks Tiktoc, just wondering hiw these measures will be prevented, as I am sure they will need antiretroviral therapy. Im just wondering if GHESKIO who is set up at port au prince, is still their, or is the water and food issue more prioritised atm, and they have been been put on the back burner.

I have looked and looked and looked and I still cannot see where it says that nestle have donated formula to Haiti.

Pleas can someone link.

I have read the nestle website and googled.

ISTN, all it says is that Nestle have donated calorie food, so I as assuming from this, and because it is Nestle, they are making assumptions that its formula.

I have also googled and been on all of the websites that have donated and not one has said they have donated formula.

Or I may be looking in the wrong place lol.