Haiti - F*****g Nestle is at it already.

[foxytocin]

here now what can I do about it?

if you look closely at my C&P at 19.37 yesterday you will see that it is in quotation marks. Then a couple mins later I posted the link. I am under the impression that this is a standard way of showing that a piece of writing is not yours? on msg boards anyway.

I think that the quote of yours below shows that you are very upset with me. I am sorry you have become so upset. I did not set out to upset anyone.

"If your going to C&P a post then make sure you say that it is, as it does nothing for a reputation, in copying pother persons articles and passing them off as your own, and doesn't really do you any favour in trying t look intelligent tbh (as many have said about you and others insightfulness to the topic in hand)! its misleading and wrong morally! Anybody can C&P posts to a thread, but its understanding them and being articulate enough to pass your own comments on the matter. Its academic dishonestly, plagiarism and copyright infringement"

I can't see anywhere that it says anything other than food and water. i can't see a mention of any milk products at all, anywhere.

I would be interested if someone could show me where it says, or even hints at formula, because at the moment from what I can see it looks like they haven't.

Which would beg the question WTF are you all shouting about?

Am happy to be linked somewhere it says they have donated formula, to make sense of this thread.

It all boils down to the fact that some people see formula as an insidious and corrupting evil, conning mothers all over the globe, whether in disaster zones like Haiti or places of compromised nutrition - or out of it.

I am sure a vehement Greek chorus will spark right up and tell me to read the entire thread, read the links (which, mostly, I have) and even probably, to read that book, The Politics of Breastfeeding (have no intention of doing so as I think there are far greater ills in society to be concentrating on than whether people breastfeed or not) and I know that this thread was started, ultimately, because people care about what is happening in Haiti and there isn't one person on here who isn't aghast and distressed at their suffering, but I am a little tired of the kneejerk reactions and the semi-villification of people who aren't marching up and down burning effigies of the Milky Bar Kid. I have no desire to stop women in Haiti bf, but it might not be possible at the moment and if Nestle are sending supplies of whatever kind just for now - good, and all this horseshit about wasting time taking the labels off or doing special unbranded stuff - well, 'tis the epitome of Western muddled thinking. No one has the time or luxury to muse on such things there.

i don't get this thread?
do people want babies to die or not? that's what it boils down to.

That's an incredibly reductive and repellent remark, StealthPolarBear. If one doesn't swallow everything on here as gospel/act like a nodding dog, one 'wants babies to die'.

I think that just proves that this thread has sunk way below the realms of discussion and debate and sunk in a mire of propaganda, name calling and base allegations.

I'm going to read something more informative and not waste my time involving myself in all this which is not doing anything constructive for the poor people in Haiti, despite its no doubt noble original intent.

SPB, Sigh

I think that it is a very difficult skill to see that things are not the same 'at home' than they are in a different culture. This skill of understanding that something (like formula) which is pretty harmless here, can be significantly dangerous elsewhere, is too difficult for some people to understand. Assuming they are even trying to understand.

Really, you could repeat all the facts until you are blue in the face. As formula is compatible in UK with healthy babies, some people will never understand that the same product can result in dead babies in another culture

Be gratefully that the is thread has had the positive result of educating me and several other posters in things we didn't previously know and let this thread go.

If Mumsnet locked threads, this is one which really needs closing. The thread is spiraling into repeated questions, already answered on the thread and no new information will be posted. Those who remain uninformed or unbelieving will continue to be so....you can give people the information but can't make them educate themselves.

HTH

Be, that's what i meant (bad way of puttting it)
babies will die if given formula
fewer babies will die if efforts are made to get them bf

LT, yes, it was, sorry. I have seen red with the number of people who seem to think formula will save lives but bf will be too much hassle. One remark in particular made me see red and has started angry posting. think i need to stop.

Right, so first I 'want babies to die' and next I am 'uneducated' and probably unable to grasp simple concepts. There is one, true irrefutable view according to some of you and unless one subscribes to it, hook, like and sinker, one is automatically either loathesome or thick.

Mmm, very persuasive, very educative.

Cross posted with you SPB. I'm sorry as well. I too am getting too cross. It's an emotive topic. The thing is, everyone on here wants the same thing - for things to improve for the people of Haiti.

yes, i heard on the news today that they pulled women ou of the wreckage who had been buried for a week. My first thought was 'good' but then i thought can you imagine being buried under rubble for a week!!

Yes, I saw the footage. Simply amazing. It scarcely seems possible.

Good grief LadyThompson, my comments only applied to posters who are uninformed about these issues, unless you claim that hat, I am not speaking about you.

SPB, As I have a fear about enclosed places, I would be insane after so long buried in rubble. Poor woman.

Nestle's actions will be (quite rightly) under intense scrutiny in relation to their adherence to the protocol for distribution of infant formula in emergencies due to their profile and past history. There are however likely to be many others (non-european baby milk manufacturers and small, less reputable charities who appear at these times) who are much less high profile and are likely to flout the regulations, and I think in many ways these are likely to be far more of a risk.

Im not upset at you at all, why on earth would I be.

I am arguing that you fail to acknowledge anybodies questions with numerous Read the thread!, when other people myself included are seeing it from a different perspective! then throwing little insults in with them.

We all agree that BF must be a prominent issue, but I am a few others are arguing about the way some of you just think that its easy to do so.

You seem to me that your opinion is right categorically and that everyone else can GTF, when showing other angles and possibilities.

But it irrelevant, but I am most certainly not upset by you.

I have been on forums for the past 8 years and I have never known that quotations marks, is a way of showing that the post is not yours.

I still stand by my post also, it doesn't do anything for a reputation on here, it just makes you look as if you cant articulate the article to your own opinion of it.

Agree with the last few posters. x x x

Sounds a awful thing to say, but I am "glad" that people are still being pulled out in the rubble, as at least it gives some hope to people.

LadyT: this is not an ideological issue. I don't believe formula is 'evil and corrupting'. It is a necessary product when babies are not breastfed for whatever reason.

Formula marketing can be unethical - I object to that.

I don't object to formula being present in Haiti, for those babies who cannot be breastfed. But support for breastfeeding and careful control of formula distribution in Haiti is not some luxurious, ideological frippery. It is a way to save lives.

Then in your 8 yrs experience, who do you show that a paragraph or 2 in a post of yours is a citation of someone else's work?

OK, basically: I do see that in countries where there is dirty water, powdered formula is a problem. Of course I see that, and I also see the attendant issues that should the formula then run out or be restricted in supply/prohibitively expensive, there can be a problem. I see that Nestle (like most multinationals, let's not be naive here) are not a charity and nor can we expect them to behave as such.

But I DO think that - as in fact you have just said, Tiktok, there is a need for formula in Haiti at the mo for babies who cannot be breastfed. Therefore, if Nestle or WHOEVER are sending it in, thank goodness. And my mild observation of this thread is that for some people, as soon as formula is mentioned in whatever context, the red mist comes down, and in this case, as I am sure you are well aware yourself, it isn't that simplistic.

But I am going to withdraw gracefully from this thread now because I am not sure I have anything further to add and I don't want to get cross again and go too far...

It's amazing, isn't it, that the Dominican Republic is part of the same island and yet it is so, so different.

you would say, I copied and pasted from this link and then post. I would have through that was blatantly obvious tbh.

Or I got the information from this link etc....

ts going round in circles, but still you still fail to accept other view and blame or even accuse people of things which they have not said.

Anyway I have finished with this, simply I see, we are talking to a brick wall, and someone who fails to see other peoples opinions!, and just going round in circles.

Thank you for that explanation LMH. It is good and correct. Now I refer you to the this link to brush up on your citation skills.

have a good day.

Goodness me, why is it so difficult to put across the idea that no-one here has a problem with formula per se. Nobody but nobody has a problem with formula being given to children who have no other option.

All people are trying to say here is that past experience of disaster zones and developing countries in general, has shown that when there is a choice BF is enormously safer for babies.

Formula is a last resort when there simply is no other option because it carries inherent risks and can kill more than it saves.

That formula will be necessary in Haiti at the moment for some babies is not under question and it will save some babies from starvation.

It has nothing to do with ideology, opinons, red mists, predujuice against formula or anything else. It has to do with the simple sad fact that formula feeding under difficult unsanitary conditions kills many children where BF does not.

Thankfully there are people who know this and who work to preserve safe feeding for children in disaster zones.

"Until now, new mothers have often been given infant formula by doctors and midwives in the hospitals, on commission from the milk formula companies, he said.

The new rules ban formula salespeople from even entering hospital grounds.

Not surprisingly, the baby formula companies, including Mead Johnson, Wyeth and Abbott Laboratories, are unwilling to give up a lucrative market."

This is what Abbott, Wyeth and Mead Johnson, all reputable pharmaceuticals, are doing to babies in the Philippines.

In fact they have lobbied the US Congress to put pressure on the Philippine government to not make parts of the WHO Code, law.

Sorry where is the quotations on all of this thread, I also never said it was wholly plagiarism, I said it was also academically dishonestly and copyright infringement, but yes clearly you know better!

But at least I dont have to cite a article and am articulate enough to post my own opinion of it

POINT PROVEN and have a good day!

"Until now, new mothers have often been given infant formula by doctors and midwives in the hospitals, on commission from the milk formula companies, he said.

The new rules ban formula salespeople from even entering hospital grounds.

Not surprisingly, the baby formula companies, including Mead Johnson, Wyeth and Abbott Laboratories, are unwilling to give up a lucrative market."

the other name for quotation marks is 'inverted commas'. Maybe you don't know that.

"I also never said it was wholly plagiarism, I said it was also academically dishonestly and copyright infringement, but yes clearly you know better!

But at least I dont have to cite a article and am articulate enough to post my own opinion of it"

all I can say now is

Their is a surprise NOT!

you mean:

there is a surprise.