Is not bf-ing the worst thing you can do....

[Alderney]

Sorry, really don't want to start some sort of pro/anti bf-ing argument here..

I've been thinking about this recently for various reasons..

Pufflet is 14 months old - she was bf for 1 day - she wouldn't latch on at all and we moved to ff-ing.

I'm happy with this choice and see lots of positives in it...

However I have been "condemned" on many occassions for "not doing the best for my baby" and "not doing what is natural" - I have been glared at in public for mixing up formula, and I have had so many people assume I've breastfed....I know people who bf have similar issues and experiences

I know people who have been very very commited to breastfeeding, who then, when their baby is on solids, feed them all sorts of pre-processed sugar loaded crap. I know people who seem happy to have their children brought up by various parents, step parents, nurseries etc while they go off and "follow their dreams".....I know people who will agonise over which school to send their child to and will go to great lengths to get into a good one.....I know people who take their chidren on vast educational holidays and give them fantastic experiences...To these people they have made other choices that I can just see having a greater effect on a child's life in totality...

I know breastfeeding or formula feeding is one of the first choices a mother makes, and many people see it as important, but is choosing to formula feed really THAT wrong in the whole life big picture....
(I know all the immune system/obesity arguments and reasons for breastfeeding - whilst I don't thing bf-ing is a great panacea for all things, I do recognise that there is scientific evidence which says bfing is better for babies and mum's all round health)

I guess I'll shut up now.

Don't worry sansouci, I was not including you as one of the 'point-scorers'. Iknow this is a very emotive subject and that is why I felt an urge to contribute to this discussion today. I think a few people involved in this debate fail to understand the anguish some women go through when they do not successfully breastfeed. They comment as though it is a decision taken lightly. We are talking about women who try really hard here, not those that do not try at all. It's a whole different ballgame.

Yes. And I also regret that I never actually "gave birth"... dd emergency c-section, ds planned c-section. Felt as if I had not been able to do my most basic duty. Much guilt. Silly, isn't it?

mad how guilty we can feel! been there too myself - v similar sit to Millymum, had expected no problems with b/f yet despite seeking tons of support had them in bucket loads! again, sure ds was latched on properly yet was in agony for weeks (no exaggeration). could have done with more support from those around me then for my decision to be unable to b/f as opposed to having merely chosen to stop - just glad i was able to express. pregnant again and dreading trying to b/f even more than labour.

sansouci, sorry, you haven't answered my questions....yes, there is evidence that stress affects babies in utero. That is likely to do with blood pressure and stress hormones, not the baby 'sensing' the mother's mood, don't you think? I am not so stupid to think that babies are not aware of feelings, but a newborn will not know whether his mother 'likes' breastfeeding or not, unless she translates that into behaviour in some way. The newborn baby's focus is survival - if he is getting milk effectively and as often as he signals, subtleties of maternal mood will be lost on him.

Chronically depressed mothers affect their babies, but that is to do with poor communication, lack of eye contact, in other words, behaviour.

Tell me - without being 'surprised' at me - how you come to 'firmly believe' that the mother can 'do more harm than good' if she is unhappy breastfeeding.

Even if you can produce evidence that babies somehow sense their mothers' unhappiness when it is not shown in maternal behaviour, I don't understand how you can quantify it and say it is worse to breastfeed than not in those circumstances.

Millymum - this isn't point-scoring....it's a discussion/debate

millymummy - retention of membranes/placental fragments is a known cause of poor milk supply. Someone should have thought of this long before it became apparent.

I think anyone who knows anything at all about breastfeeding knows the anguish and despair some mothers go through when doing it when for whatever reason it is not 'working'.....I think this is a hidden grief shared by literally millions of women. They can feel bereft, often for years. Then people around them tell them it doesn't matter, they have a healthy baby, what are they making a fuss for, it's just one of those things, and even that the baby is better off for not being breastfed. The feelings are supposed to be denied and trivialised - and they get buried.

Of course feeding is not the be-all and end-all of mothering. But that doesn't stop the sadness.

Tiktok, I understand that this is a debate, but your arguments are not helpful to those women reading this that are having a real struggle to do the best for their babies. I understand your point that a baby doesn't know that it's mother is unhappy about breastfeeding, but feelings of frustration, pain,anxiety etc are bound to manifest themselves in someones behaviour surely? This is what the baby picks up on. Anyway this is beside the point. I did not give my baby a formula feed because I 'didn't like it', I gave it to her because I couldn't see her so distressed with hunger any longer, and I continued to give her breastfeeds.

millymummy, I don't want to make anyone feel more unhappy.....and don't understand how I have. I am acknowledging the feelings of unhappiness and despair, and trying to point out that those are genuine, but the baby doesn't know you have them, unless (of course) the feelings translate into behaviour in some way. Surely that helps mothers worried they are somehow causing their babies to be worse off if they are breastfed?

I agree that babies can be made distressed when the breastfeeding isn't working - but that's because the breastfeeding is not satisfying them, not because they are mind readers (they don't read your mind until they are a bit older )

tiktok, thankyou for your last post. It was refreshing to hear you do actually understand that women can beat themselves up about this for a long time.This was my point. We all agree that breast is best and we should do everything we can to give our children the best start in life, but if some of us can't for whatever reason, it makes it so much worse to feel that you are being judged by other mothers.

I breastfed ds for two years. I had mastitis and cracked nipples and a colicky baby who used me as a dummy 20 hours a day but I stuck at it and when it worked it was wonderful. I feel sorry for formula feeders as they have to carry all that clobber around everywhere and they can never experience that high of pure love that you get when you look into your babies eyes while they are latched on, it's heaven.

I don't feel superior to formula feeding mums, I am sad that they are missing out but I realize that it is not always a choice. Besides they get more sleep than I did so it is swings and roundabouts.

I also swiftly moved on to feeding my ds processed cr*p. Is your baby on solids yet alderney? I would beware of criticising other mums choices until you have got your infant to school without them ever eating a cheesestring (what do they see in them?).

millymummy, not sure how you missed the fact I truly know about the feelings of sadness - this is what I said in my post : "I think this is a hidden grief shared by literally millions of women. They can feel bereft, often for years." Couldn't be much clearer!

I agree that feeling judged makes feelings worse - this is what lies behind the would-be helpful comments made to women along the lines of 'it doesn't really matter' and 'you've got a healthy baby - why worry?' and stuff that actually denies and minimises the strength and depth of feelings, because people are worried about appearing to judge, and so go the other way.....which I don't think helps, either, however well meant.

Am I tho only one wo thinks breasfeeding seem incestuous! I could not even consider it for my first baby and suffered from other women's jugment and so as a result withdrew from them - is it morally correct to make women feel this way for their decision? My partner was also able to share in the feeding which gave him a lot of pleasure and helped him to bond too- so it is not entirely selfish. {please don't anyone say that I was feelling guilty because I was not - I just diskile prejudice of any kind.

I'm not sure it's possible to say you don't like prejudice and then to say that you think breastfeeding is a form of incest. That's an absolutely disgusting thing to say. And I'm afraid it does say a lot more about you than about women who breastfeed.

Quite controversial for a first post, DragonTree (unless you're an old member who has changed her name?)!

breastfeeding incestous????? Blimey and you call others judgemental. Im gobsmacked.

bring it on dragontree.............

how did you feel about being pregnant, DragonTree?

DragonTree - your opinion should be as valued as any other. Although I BF and I don't happen to agree with you, I can now see why you felt that others may have felt that their opinion deserved more air-time than yours. I have read your message carefully and see that you used the words "seems insectuous" and not "is a form of incest" which are two quite different things. You are brave to express your feeling in the face of the responses I am sure you know you would receive. We all have our own ways of dealing with feeding and everyone should have room to feel accepted and not judged or ostracised. This is terribly important in a free society. Surely we have to make room for all cultures and beliefs and who knows the background reasons for feelings - bad life experiences and even violence have led a friend of mine to feel as you do. She too suffered rom other's reactions. Perhaps that is whyu I understand and even admire your courage in posting your feelings. It is difficult to put such a point to this forum but instant condemnation is perhaps not the most helpful way to respond. Eceryone needs support.

I loved being preganst. I love my child. I always have. I always will. He is happy and healthy - as am I - surely these are the main things? Where is the problem?

Sorry, but imo someone who feels that breastfeeding is incestuous has a very warped understanding of what it means to breastfeed. Incestuous suggests to me something sexual, shameful and abusive, and to describe any way of feeding a baby in this manner is to me quite shocking. Babies are not sexual beings, feeding is not a sexual act.

LonePine - why should dragontree's opinion be as valued as any one else's? There may be reasons why she thinks breastfeeding seems incestuous, and they may go way back, and maybe it's not her fault she has grown up feeling this.....but honest to God, why would we 'value' that 'opinion'? I am sure you can think of a range of opinions that are value-less.

This is one of them.

Dragontree, I am not surprised other women withdrew from you if you even hinted to them you felt this way, or showed in any way you had this sort of distaste for breastfeeding. If other mothers thought you felt what they are doing seems incestuous, then I'd be surprised if anyone wanted to be in the same room as you, frankly.

Being grown up means examining our feelings, seeing where the logic or lack of logic is in them, and discarding the ones that make no sense....growing out of them, in other words.

If you can't do that quite yet, then keep them to yourself, for heavens sake.

And yes, that is a 'flame'.

I think DragonTree's opinion is utterly worthless. I think it's disgusting. 'seems incestuous' means 'It seems like an illegal sexual act involving child abuse' - ye Gods, I'm supposed to value that?
I am SICK of the warped values of a society that seems to think women breastfeed their babies because a/they want to show everyone their tits b/they are preventing their babies from 'growing up' or c/they are getting some perverted sexual kick out of it
No wonder breastfeeding rates in this country are so low, but we think page three is fine. I despair. I really do.

Message withdrawn