Anyone else prepared to admit that they didn't b/f just because they didn't want to ??

[IllegallyBrunette]

Just wondered really.

I have 3 dc and didn't breast feed any. I was 19 when I had dd1 and was asked by a midwife if i'd be breastfeeding and I said no. There was no argument or discussion, that was that.

When I had dd2 at 34 weeks she had to be tube fed. I offered to express milk for her but was told i needn't bother.

With ds, again I didn't want to but even if I had it would have been hard as he was supposed to be on phototherapy 24/7 for a week.

I think the attitude towards ff mums on this forum by some bf mums is disgusting. I would never dream of saying anything against any mum for feeding her baby by whichever way she chooses, yet some of the comments on here like 'formula should only be available if there is a proven medical need' are just awful.

Hi tittybangbang

Yes, you're right: bf-ing is a physiological norm. I do agree with this. I said before, in response to Maria's cultural relativity at some point, that of all the things we do, bf-ing should be the most natural - we are mammals! In a perfect world, I also believe that all babies should be breastfed for as long as they want. But sadly we don't live in a perfect - or even a 'normal' - world.

I made the point about 'good' parenting because I felt I needed to be inclusive of some of the responses on this thread which have come from FF mothers (most of whom, it seems) began bf-ing, then stopped, frequently for reasons of lack of support, etc., rather than for "selfish" reasons. It is clear that many of them feel hurt and upset by some of the postings about bf-ing and ff-ing here.

These women are good parents too.

I felt that - although I am very sympathetic to your baby-led empathy (and do try to practise it myself) - it is very difficult for mothers to be that baby-led in our society; not because they are selfish, or because they are the ones who want to make all the choices (goodness, read any thread on MN and you see examples of mums sacrificing their needs for their children all the time), but because life, our lives, get in the way.

Your posts could be misinterpreted by some who didn't bf for long, or at all, as denigrating their abilities to put their children first and parent well. I'm not saying that you are saying that (obviously you're not), but I can see how these threads are frequently precisely not about what's said, but what people feel is implied. DYSWIM?

The real target of all our collective wrath and irritation ought not to be individuals and how they parent, but society as a whole.

Maria - I hope you're not offended by my calling you a cultural relativist! I'm using you more as a rhetorical tool, than really responding to your posts...

Sorry!

As a ff mother if someone said to me that they genuinely thought that formula was 'as good as' bm I would feel happy to disagree as I am obviously not going to come across as a bf mother would in this situation.

It is clear that whether we bf or ff it is a touchy subject for a lot of us.

There are really two issues:

The misconceptions that some people hold about the comparative benefits of bm vs formula (i have never personally come across anyone who thought formula was 'as good as')

And the way that any choices we make for our baby become open season for comment - generally without the commentator knowing the facts.

Disagreeing with inaccurate information is different imo to commenting on a personal choice based on individual circumstances. Unfortunately it is such an emotional issue that these things often get confused. I don't know what the answer is for a bf mother confronted with a formula feeder who believed they were providing the 'same thing' for their baby but as a ff mother I would ask where they had got their information from.

Where I live I did get a lot of support when struggling with bf - from the HV to the NCT but still was unable and actually it compounded the problem because they made me feel selfish for contemplating giving up which in the end all adds to the guilt. I am sure this wasn't their intention but I felt exhausted and unable to articulate properly how I felt when I was asked, 'Do you want to breastfeed?'

Sometimes what is best for mother and baby is not just a simple matter of breast is best.

Fizz, what you just wrote:

Disagreeing with inaccurate information is different imo to commenting on a personal choice based on individual circumstances. Unfortunately it is such an emotional issue that these things often get confused.

That is entirely what I wanted to say and didn't manage to articulate!

When a woman is struggling with breastfeeding, and she asks for help from someone like me (NCT breastfeeding counsellor, probably someone like you saw, fizz, that is - we are asked by the mother herself for help) then it is reasonable for us to assume the mother does want to breastfeed.

We do, sometimes, check this, as her view might change, or she may just be exploring options and want to assess how much more she has to struggle in order to bf...and we might well ask in a kind and polite way if she wants to breastfeed.

I don't think we would say 'do you want to breastfeed?' in a sort of eye rolling impatient way, but I would prob say, 'can I just check your feelings on this, if you're still planning to carry on breastfeeding....?'

This allows her to be open about her ambivalence (and she often is ambivalent) and to discuss maybe carrying on with some breastfeeding, or gradually switching to formula or whatever, and I will (of course) help her with all of that.

It is not intended to be a guilt-inducing or pressuring question, or meant to make anyone 'feel selfish'.

Asking the question in a way that leaves an exhausted mother 'unable to articulate' how she felt is just crappy care, I think, but it is the mother's responsibility to be open with her carers and counsellors and accept they may be as sensitive as, um, a very sensitive thing, but that not all of them will be mind-readers

This is not to be critical of your comments, fiz, which are valid and I think reflect a not-uncommon situation. Not sure what the answer is!

Why is aptamil thought of as a 'good' formula, is the question?

Because aptamil's marketing strategy has been like this:

i) heavy promotion to healthcare professionals, who routinely recommend this brand for no good reason at all, especially to mothers who started off bf

ii) a sophisticated packaging that looks upmarket matched with a premium price, and classy looking ads

iii) careful placement of sponsored editorial - a few years ago they had a series of babycare information in the Independent, for instance

In a market place where all the competing brands are more or less identical, the challenge for the marketeer is to carve out a niche that differentiates its customers from one another ('cos the product can't really differentiate itself).

Mothers who fall for this rubbish are not stupid - they're just normal human beings! We all fall for marketing twaddle of one sort or another.

But please don't let anyone tell me that formula marketing has no effect on anyone because 'mothers aren't stupid, you know!'

Yes, we are.

I had discussion with ff friend the other day and she seemed to think that SMA is the choice of chavs and aptamil is much more middle class!!! The others must be somewhere in the middle.

You can tell also which socio-economic group uses one formula or another by looking at corner shops in different postcodes and peering at their shelves next time you have to run in for emergency bread or milk.

These shops tend not to have the space to stock the whole range of formulas and have to select the ones their customers ask for.

There's an overlap, obviously, as sometimes parents change their baby's formula if the brands they try do not seem to suit, but the market is fairly well differentiated.

Just from observation, I would say that most breastfeeding mothers who use formula as well, or who change to formula, use aptamil. It's also the brand most often used by mumsnetters, and the one people say their midwife or whoever 'recommends' as being 'the best' or 'closest to breastmilk'.

On the basis of no independent info at all.

OYM I had read the thread and you made it very clear you were talking about the effect of drug/ heavy alcohol consumption on breast milk 'And what I meant by 'unhealthy lifestyle' was one of drink/drugs blah blah blah, not just simply eating unhealthy (sorry that was me not being clear).'

To me this is a strange point to make as this kind of lifestyle would almost certainly impact on your ability to care for your children and FF them as well as effecting breastmilk.

I realise a point was being made about occasional cocaine use and incompatibility with BFing.

I know someone who made their baby ill by making their formula too strong (because they were knackered from lack of sleep with a newborn) but this is exactly the kind of mistake someone who had taken cocaine could make.

IMO even occasional, recreational drug use is incompatible with any kind of infant feeding, not just BFing.

Tiktok that's so interesting about aptamil!! It's true that's what happened in my case! When (for various reasons) we decided to give one bottle of formula a day each evening at 11 or so, we were told by at least 2-3 people that aptamil 'was closest to breastmilk' and that 'health professionals- midwives, nurses- believe this too'. Which is why we chose it!

There are quite a few midwives out there who believe (with anectdotal evidence only I might add) that babies fed on SMA suffer more constipation and often suggest changing milk type as a treatment for constipation in newborn babies.

it is interesting. here in denmark, i chose Hipp organic for formula and gruel, and when i came back to the UK over xmas, was put off aptamil, thinking it looked a bit "medical".

I tried to bf dd1 and hated it. It hampered the bonding - I used to dread her waking up and needing feeding Before dd2 was born, I knew she would be ff from day 1, and I am pleased I made that choice.

The future MrTikTok (when I tire of the current one ;) ) is doctor and writer Ben Goldacre (see his fab book Bad Science) and he explains about how HCPs are marketed to, the power of packaging and so on (with ref. to medicines, but it all applies to formula as well).

No HCP has any independent assessment of different formulas on sale in the UK because none has been done. What they do have is manufacturers' presentations (see Ben Goldacre for what they will do)and tons of adverts in journals. I have seen the leaflets they get about formula and the standard of 'scholarship' is woeful.

If there is evidence that constipation is more likely with SMA, then it should be formally tested and recorded, but all the midwives have to go on is anecdote and their own experience with mothers - and even if they have been practising for 30 years they will still not get a proper evidence-based picture. It may be true, or it may only be true in some susceptible babies, or it may only be true in some hard/soft water areas...whatever. Babies who have formula deserve better than this.

Sexonlegs - can I ask you how you chose the brand you used, or if you used different brands?

DIC I was refering to the comments made afterwards and commenting on how they conflicted each other.(I can't see how youve missed them) I was not saying that a BF mother on drugs was less capable than a FF on drugs, I was commenting on the fact that her milk wouldn't be as good for a baby as a BF mother who was not doing these things....I made no comparison to Formula!! I was pointing out that one mother thought that a woman taking drugs should not BF her child and another mother said she should because of withdrawal. I was pointing out about differences of opinion and people getting and giving bad information (for whatever reason). Once again can I clarify that I WAS NOT saying that a BF mother on drugs is any WORSE than a FF on drugs, this point was made by YOU not ME. I was comparing BM with BM.

tiktok I think it was you that pointed out about withdrawal. I had never even considered this before, and my opinion would have been that a BF mother taking drugs should NEVER feed her child her milk, obviously that is wrong (I do realise you are talking about weaning a newborn off after birth). Just goes to show that we all learn all of the time and I am glad that I have joined this thread because I have learnt even more from it too.

It also goes to show how easy it is to mis-inform someone too...I wouldn't have thought twice about thinking i was right in telling someone that they shouldnt feed a newborn thier milk if they are taking drugs, this information would have be wrong, I wouldn't have realised.

Just to add, I hope I am never in a situation where I have to advise about BM and drugs!

Tiktok, the NCT woman that I spoke to was not responsible for the comment, she was lovely as was my HV who was responsible...

It is just an example of how something meant to be helpful can be taken the wrong way particularly by a hormonal and tired woman, ie I think she meant to say, 'You don't have to feel like you must breastfeed'.

I think her comment was meant to make me confide in her but my personality tends to become introverted when I am stressed and so I didn't feel able to elaborate. Perhaps in the future I would feel more confident to do so. I hope so because I don't believe I had any reason to feel guilty - I just wish I could have felt this more strongly at the time.

Tiktok, I found your comments about Ben Goldacre interesting - I've just read the book (and am now recommending it to everyone!), and the chapter titled 'Pill solves complex social problem' really struck a chord with me. I found it fascinating that people seem so ready and happy to believe that one isolated ingredient given to teenagers can have such a profound effect on their performance but that the sole source of nutrition for an infant's most rapid period of growth and development can be substituted with little effect. (Not that breastfeeding is mentioned in the chapter, or that the Durham 'researchers' mentioned it either, but I hope you see what I mean).
Sorry if this makes no sense, I have to rush out!

'Tis an interesting contrast, Faintly, I agree. Of course, the ending to the 'Pill solves complex social problems' is that it doesn't, but that if you chuck enough money, publicity and claptrap at the issue, people will end up believing anything.

I would like the lovely Dr Ben to take a look at formula marketing some time.

I think you should email him and suggest it Tiktok. I'm sure you would write persuasively on why he should.

OYM I know you did state it was off subject but this does compare formula to contaminated BM - "Formula may be 'on size fits all' but lets not forget that we KNOW what is in formula. A mother breast feeding her baby could consume any thing...alcohol, drugs or simply a very unhealthy diet....now is that 'better' for a child? I know this goes off the subject a little and we are not talking about mothers who are doing these things but by saying that FF is one size fits all is just a random comment that has the same meaning as if saying that a mother BF couldn't feed her child the 'wrong' thing!"

Formula does not exist in a vacuum any more than BM does. You only know what is in formula if it is made up according to the instructions. Formula is just as open to contamination by the drug addled as BM.

This is not the same DIC, you are making a different point now. [tired emotion]

Same point made different ways - drugs effect competence and parenting, hence have an impact on FF as well as BF. If drug abuse is relevant to a discussion about BFing (and it probably isn't for over 99% of mothers) then it's relevant to FFing as well.

""but by saying that FF is one size fits all is just a random comment that has the same meaning as if saying that a mother BF couldn't feed her child the 'wrong' thing!""

I was comparing the fact that these TWO comments were both random and not the norm.

AGAIN I have never said that drug abuse is not relevant to FF.

I still don't understand your point, as I have not said what you are trying to 'correct' me on.