Why can't we just all breatsfeed?

[pupuce]

Seeing the recent debates on breastfeeding, I didn't want to take part in the discussion as I didn't feel I could add to the debate but I was reading this and thought.... why is it that so many women who ended up bottlefeeding have stories of "not enough milk", "baby not thriving", etc.... so we have a BF rate in this country of barely 1 in 2 babies breastfed after 1 week (that's not impressive if you do know that breast is best)... why is it that the Swedes have 98%....
I am sure it's a combination of factors.... but it does mean that too many people in this country have a "wrong reason" for not BF.... surely many women have not enough information about milk production to feel that they truly didn't have enough milk....

OK - am I starting world war 3 ??? hope not

twiglett I was joking!

??? joanneg

IMO the "army of midwives" might replace the army of female relatives and neighbours of the "olden days" who used to provide guidance and support and the benefit of their knowledge to the new mother. Our ancestors lived in much closer proximity, with none of the social isolation alot of women experience these days and none of the stigmas associated with modern child-rearing. Just because something is natural, it is also natural to help, assist and cheer on others. It certainly helped me!

hear hear Northstar. it's a chicken and egg situation isn't it?

(mts - have to change my sign on mil alert! just not very good at it!)

Am curious to know if there are any readily availabe stats on bf before and after the global introduction of formula. For those mums physically unable to bf pre-formula - what were there options?

still slightly lost joanneg - were you posting as puddinggal???

I am amazed anyone manages to bf at all. I was able to happily bf DS, despite:
-NCT classes emphasising the ease of it, with very little advice for common problems
-the bed in the ante-natal ward having one thin pillow and the bed-head thing not working so that I couldn't lean on it or sit supported,
-sitting weeping all night in the TV room while mw gossiped about the holiday rota, attemting to feed a fractious headachey baby post-ventouse,
-a peadiatrician who laid it on really thick that if I didn't use formula immediately my mildly jaundiced baby would end up in some kind of light unit miles from the post-natal ward,
-mws who, even though I was begging for help to get DS to latch on on both sides (rather than just one), couldn't find time, until DP stood in front of one as she was putting her coat on to leave, and she rushed in, shoved DS to by breast and rushed out again

• Insulting bossy notices everywhere in the ward advocating bf with all the subtleness and effectiveness of the 'just say no' campaigns -having to buy hideous nursing bras!

Why was I able to get through all this and continue? (and this is in the context of being someoen who both wanted to, and had no significant physical difficulties - respect for all those peopel, their pov understood)

• a brilliant all-day workshop at Kings which gave us practice at positions, tips, a realistic view and chance to talk frankly about anything at all
• friends from my ante-natal group who had been through it just weeks ahead of me and gave practical and moral support
• supportive DP
• a bloody-minded confidence in myself and my right to demand help advice and suport
• working and socialising in a v liberal women-orientated environment.

Sorry - I know all this has been brought up - but I feel my experience sums up a lot of why the UK is not like Norway or Sweden.

DD was 3 months old before I started to feel comfortable (physically) bf'ing her. Prior to that, cracked nipples hell , and perhaps a similar problem to Chicpea's which resulted in DD being hospitalised for 4 days and fed intravenously because nobody could see why she was vomiting up so much blood. I was telling people that the birth was much easier than the feeding, but still wasn't ready to switch to formula. In the light of this thread I am wondering why, though at the time I just felt it. The main reason I suppose echoes what others have said... the 'drip drip' (!) support of others who have b/f and found it variably wonderful, difficult, whatever. It happens that in my social circle there are way more b/feeders than bottle feeders. To the extent that when I mentioned the option of bottle feeding to my godmother just said 'yes but WE JUST DON'T DO THAT'. I didn't read this as a critisism of bottle feeders, just simple fact. she was right - I would have been on my own as a bottle feeder. Elements of what has been called 'breast feeding fascism' here I'm sure, but there we go; to me it came over as support.

Perhaps this is a similar thing to what happens in Sweden?

I have no doubt that I would have given up if I had not had this 'culture of breastfeeding' around me.

as well as the 'sweden' model there is also the question of what happened before formula was developed, esp. in poorer populations ... what was the shape of breastfeeding support then? Likely as not it was 'drip drip' support too, though I would like to know how some of the mums here whose experiences were so particularly difficult, would have managed.

pagan - i would guess wet nursing or very early weaning.

after my troubles with bfing my mum and a tactless friend did say to me - ds would have died if he had been born a hundred years ago (i.e. pre formula)

pagan - yes by mistake it is my old signon that my mil found out so I stopped using. botched that up might have to change again now. cant think of any more blimming names.

MMM - possibly Northstar - but I doubt very much whether my mother or other relative would have had my 30minute old DD by the scruff of the neck - pushing hime into my equally manhandled left boob...

Truely horrid behviour and totally lacking in repect for my baby and for me.

I told them in no uncertain terms to get their bl**dy hands off me nad my baby and that we would work it out ourselves - which we did. If I had been a less confident person, I can well see that I might have thought this was normal and that breastfeeding was typified by screaming babies and angonising nipples!

sorry I meant mts not pagan! this is what happens when you are up all nigt with a teeting toddler!

sorry double cross posted Pagan and Blu!

soapbox - fully empathise with the man handling experience - very few midwives actually even bothered to ask my permission before man handling me

This thread has been a real education for me. I simply didn't know there were so many potential problems with breastfeeding.

Thank you Eulalia. It is meant as a informative discussion....
And thank you Tiktok for confirming the blood thing !

oooh soapbox that sounds awful. my ds was in shock for 24hrs, he didnt feed AT ALL, and he wasnt moved or touched either - just let him come round in his own time. Apparantly thats quite ok new babies are designed not to need feeding for 24hrs - in case of situations like mine! Why on earth people wanted to mess with your 30min old baby is beyond me -

If you speak to older women say your grandmothers etc they all breast fed as their was no easy alternative. I have spoken to a few and most say they had no problems doing it. I suppose if there is no alternative - bit like pain relief in labour (another contentious issue), you just get on with it because you have to.

Another interesting point is that older men 60+ are very happy and don't feel uncomfortable around breast feeding mothers as it was the norm 'in their day'. However from speaking to my grandparents and their friends I think women were more likely to find a quiet spot to feed baby in private.

Something I prefer to do myself since it is an intimacy between mother and baby that I don't really want to share with MGPs.

both my grandmother and DHs grandmother formula fed(!) I don't know if my gm started off attempting bfing. My DHs grandmother said that "her milk ran out".

My grandma didn't breastfeed my dad & uncle (c. 60 years ago, during the war) because she couldn't be doing with all the hassle. She was at home on her own, holding everything together and just wanted to get on with it (especially with no.2 when she also had a 15 month old!). She has always been a very pragmatic woman!

I dont even know who in my family breastfed. I assumed that formular was a new invention!!! Will have to do a mini family poll!

I haven't read all of the posts, so sorry if I am repetitive. I think the main reason why more people don't breastfeed is down to the support from midwives etc in the labour ward. from my last experience people aren't even encouraged to breastfeed, let alone helped - probably due to the severe understaffing in hospitals (at least that was my experience). I then only saw a midwife a couple of times once I was discharged, again due to lack of staff. I suspect in Sweden there is more support than here.

People like Jessie Wallace being photographed with a trolley load of sma don't really encourage breastfeeding either (I don't mean that to be inflammatory - there might of course be a good reason for her bottlefeeding).

I also agree that there is alot of pressure put on people to breastfeed, new mothers really don't need to feel guilty if they can't breastfeed or feel that it will suit them and their babies to bottlefeed.

I have to say that breastfeeding - apart from the initial sharp let-down pain - didn't hurt at all. I was so fortunate not to have mastitis or thrush, and if I had Fisil's experience I am pretty sure I would have given up way sooner than she did - I'm no martyr.

As everyone says, I'm sure there are many reasons. I think the maternity leave etc in Sweden contributes - a Swedish friend told me that nursing moms who go back to work are given a place to express and a set amount of time off, every few hours, to do it! With this sort of support, you wouldn't be expecting to put your child on formula, you'd have the option of breastfeeding to a year.

But I think the biggest reason 98% of them succeed is /because/ 98% of them succeed. Imagine if 98% of the midwives on the postnatal ward had breastfed. Imagine if growing up, you'd seen breastfeeding around, pretty often, so boobs weren't chest decoration to you, but rather used for feeding babies. You'd know breastfeeding was supposed to look. You could ask your sister "Is your milk pink and lumpy? Do you want to scream every time you nurse?" Breastfeeding in public would be /normal/. Some of the problems we have are because we're not used to how breastfeeding should be, and some of them are because we don't have enough support.

Before formula, babies that had problems feeding often died. If mothers had problems feeding, I'd expect other moms would help. If someone else's baby couldn't feed, and you were lactating (and you would be, most of your adult life), wouldn't you feed it, if the alternative was letting it die?