Why can't we just all breatsfeed?

[pupuce]

Seeing the recent debates on breastfeeding, I didn't want to take part in the discussion as I didn't feel I could add to the debate but I was reading this and thought.... why is it that so many women who ended up bottlefeeding have stories of "not enough milk", "baby not thriving", etc.... so we have a BF rate in this country of barely 1 in 2 babies breastfed after 1 week (that's not impressive if you do know that breast is best)... why is it that the Swedes have 98%....
I am sure it's a combination of factors.... but it does mean that too many people in this country have a "wrong reason" for not BF.... surely many women have not enough information about milk production to feel that they truly didn't have enough milk....

OK - am I starting world war 3 ??? hope not

milk tinged with blood

Pupuce, I wonder occasionally why this might be. One thing that has occured is that if Sweden (for example) were neutral during WW2 then was infant formula ever as widely used there as it was here in England? Given that (as I understand) formula feeding really took off around that time, so that ladies in this country of a viable age could go ahead and work as part of the 'war effort'. Maybe, if this is the case, our breast feeding statistics are so low by comparison due to the possibility that formula feeding never really became as established in certain countries as it did here.

I've experienced both sides, unsuccessful and successful b/feeding. I felt tremendous guilt when I had to introduce bottles and eventually give up with my DS (about four years of guilty feelings). I feel that in this country b/f is still not widely acceptable, although it is getting better. I also felt when I was trying to feed DS1 (in the dark days before I discovered MN) that even although I knew about b/feeding counsellors I shouldn't contact one because my HV was helping me and I didn't want to tred on her toes.

Second time round however things were much better and I was much more confident, I also had more support second time (my Mum came round to help me more as my Dad has retired now, DH was more understanding, when DS1 was little he was suffering from depression, and I had MN) and just got on with whopping them out whenever/whereever and I just hope that the sight of me hasn't put anyone off b/feeding!

FWIW I don't believe for a minute that pupuce has started this thread to be controversial.

Just noticed the blood bit. When feeding DS1 we went through a time when he got loads of blood with his milk (I thought he was getting half a nipple at one point but it somehow or other stayed attached to me) and he just used to posset the blood back up, gross but only the milk seemed to stay down.

Chicpea, you had a horrible time - no need to throw blood-tinged milk away ever....what a terrible thing to make you do, and all based on ignorance. It sounds as if you had a nasty infection postnatally, too, which would have made you feel rotten (your dh didn't mean to say something unkind, I don't suppose, but that remark won't have helped, either).

Babies are not harmed or even bothered by blood in the milk.

I don't know much about Sweden, but if it is anything like Norway, it was never a formula feeding nation the way we became, so they never really turned away from breastfeeding the way we did. The reasons why this was the case in the UK and other countries are complex, not just to do with the war, but also to do with a strong dairy lobby, big business practice (US doctors and hospitals are still very closely linked to formula manufacturers), the institutionalisation of birth (babies in hospitals were on a routine, 'cos that's how hospitals liked to be run).....anyway, it's not anything like as simple as Swedish maternity leave, I'm sure we agree!

Pupuce -to comment on your original question - have you looked at different practices in ante natal and post natal care here and in Sweden? Also rates of c sections, instrumental deliveries, home births etc?? And rates of premature births? Surely all of these factors could affect the Bf rates?

I think its probably down to the appallingly staffed labour wards where it is difficult to obtain help from anyone for whatever reason and the tendency is to treat you as a piece of meat rather than a new mother

So even though there's support if you fight for it (after DS was born I remember the woman opposite me kept pressing emergency button because her baby (2nd) wouldn't latch on .. and the response of the midwives ranged from help to frustration with her for daring to ask for help to 'oh just give a bottle'

And its probably more down to our mothers' generation being told to formula feed cos its best .. you don't get inter-generational support and encouragement (in the main)

A swedish friend of mine was TOTALLY supported from the minute she gave birth - she didn't have to move, just spent time in bed with dd with dh and family looking after her like she was a queen and had regular visits from a bf counsellor at home to help ensure she was ok. She bf-d till he was 8 months old and toothy!

I got a bed in a maternity ward for a week, left on my own apart from medical visits and because DS was low birth weight told I had to use formula from the start until my milk came in. When it did they were too busy to show me how to bf as were the NCT and La Leche. Got home and took over as full time housewife, looked after visiting relatives, ironed etc etc. Managed to get him to bf once a day for 6 weeks before the GP and HV said I was wasting my time and upsetting him.

Point being that some national cultures value motherhood higher than others in my view.

Why don't more people breastfeed? Midwives and night midwives on the post-delivery wards shoving a screaming baby onto your man-handled breast is quite a lot to take. Then shaking their heads in disbelief saying 'this usually works' and making out your baby is strange, when clearly when you get to know her it is obvious she's just not a babe who likes to be pushed around ;). Feeding for more than an hour at a time was hard, esp when you know you could just give a bottle, and your dh thinks you should. Finding out she's losing weight and the midwives saying you'll have to go back into hospital if she doesn't do better (and telling you to top up with formula). OK, it wouldn't worry me so much second time round because of all the advice I get on Mumsnet, but when you've just been given total responsibility for this new babe and don't know what the hell you're doing its hard. Getting mastitis was hard, but BFing does help it. Breastfeeding counsellors are great IME, and OK, in an ideal world we'd all get great support, but in reality we get an inconsistent service from midwives and health visitors who have been told to be pro-breastfeeding but may or may not be in reality. (I bfed for 6 months in the end). Sorry to waffle, but this is my experience and I can see why people choose not to. Honestly I think it will take another generation of fiercely promoting BFing to bring about much change.

she did get out of bed by the way - didn't mean she was in bed for 8 months ( can you imagine??? heaven)

I don't feel heated about this debate, just very very sad. I really wanted to bf, but I also wanted to avoid 30 years of pain and guilt as my mum is still suffering. In her case she was just unable to produce milk. She tried everything - the "press up" position (lying virtually on top of me!), and with my brother she tried for 1 month, which meant c. 16 hours a day on the breast and a very hungry baby. But she was made to feel very very bad by other people. So it was important to me that I made my own decisions and did not suffer in the way she continues to.

I'm afraid that I stopped at 11 days. It was a dreadful decision to make, but the three hours of crying for each feed (which were four hourly!) were just too much - one hour because of the pain before the feed and the anticipation, the hour of feeding was so excruciatingly painful that dp had to phsyically confort me throughout and the hour afterwards of recovery. I gave up because dp had to shuttle between me sitting crying in one room and ds crying in another. I also desperately missed the intimacy that you just don't get with breastfeeding that bottle feeding gives. I hated not being able to cuddle my baby or walk at a normal pace or take a shower. Every HV & MW I spoke to said "see how he latches on, oh yes, that's fine." But in fact I had thrush in my nipple & breast & mastitis and had pink lumpy milk, which I thought was normal (never thought to ask anyone!). So I am very sad that I wasn't able to. I will try this time, but if it is driving a wedge between me and my baby again, I am going to go for loving my baby, and ignore the health benefits of breastfeeding. This is a topic that makes me very sad. I wish I could have breastfed ds, but I also feel that I had a right to make the decision I did and I have a right for it to be a private decision and not to have hurtful comments from people (as I inevitably did).

Haven't had time to read all the posts but I think this is a vital topic to discuss. I read somewhere (the Mumsnet book I think) that about 1% of women are physically unable to b/feed so that means that there are a huge no. women in this country who are not doing it for social and emotional reasons and of course usually a difficult baby.

If someone genuinely doesn't want to b/feed then fair enough but nearly always the vast amount have wnated to and somewhere along hte line the 'system' has failed them, be it the hospital, counsellors, family, society in general, poor information and myths. It seems that it is usually a mismash of all of these. I also think that actually having the choice of formula or breast can be confusing for some women. However it would interfere with a woman's rights to take away that choice. So its really tricky. but I think that pupuce would like to know what went wrong for these women so that she can learn from their experiences. It is the only way to move forward. but understandably many women aren't keen to talk about it so things never really get any better.

Anyway will try to read some of these posts....

one thing I noticed that might make people give up too soon is that everyone tells you if you're doing it right you wont feel a thing. I love breastfeeding and found it really easy but of course you're going to feel it, a hard gummed baby sucking on your nipple 8hrs a day is going to be a bit uncomfortable.

Maybe if we were given more realistic advice, that it might hurt a bit at first and take a bit of getting used to, more people would breastfeed for longer.

beansmum, in my case the exact opposite would have helped! I kept being told it was going to be painful, so I was prepared to put up with a lot of pain. I put up with more pain than I should have done - allowing the thrush & mastitis to go undetected for too long and not mentioning to anyone the lumpy pink milk. If people had not insisted to me that it was going to hurt, I would have sought help more assertively (rather than just asking my HV & MW every time I saw them). In the end the argument for me was "last week I went through a 12 hour labour. At no point did it hurt anywhere near as much as this is hurting. Therefore this is an unacceptable level of pain". I also resent having lost a precious 2 weeks with my son because of the pain. So in my case I wish I had heard less about how much pain I should have to put up with!

I think guilt=doing something you felt you should have done but failed to do. To use an analogy, it is like being told to sit your driving test without any practice and very little theory. No-one would be surprised then that you failed.

Why should we expect women to magically know how to breastfeed when they've hardly seen anyone do it and people are unwilling to talk about it (usually because of bad experiences) and they have very little ante-natal support. The support in hospital is terrible too... to get b/feeding to work it is vital to prepare and for it to start working within hours, certainly days.... This doesn't happen and all the problems arise out of a situation that should never have happened in the first place.

I felt guilty about my first baby as I thought I was going to fail but fortuanatley we pulled through but looking back I am surprised at how willing I was to blame myself. Guilt is such a negative emotion and it doesn't lead anywhere. Now I just feel really really angry at the people who didn't try to help me to b/feed my son. I do think it is important to talk about this at the risk of upsetting others becasue that is the only way that things get better.

By the way isn't it the case that in Norway(Sweden also?) that formula is only sold in chemists and it is actually seen as medical necessity to feed baby formula. It is taken as read that you will b/feed.

a friend of mine is Norwegian and they do have a very high rate of bf, partia;;y for the reason that bottle feeding is heavily frowened upon... my friend was a wreck to say the least...

peer pressure can be an awful thing, a can be lack of information or even worse... too much varying information.

IMHO happy mother = happy baby and there should be no question of guilt!

My story is similar to many who have posted here already.

I breastfed my DD for just over a year with no problem at all and loved doing it.

When I had my DS I expected it to be a breeze - but it wasn't

There was no sign that anything was wrong until he was 3 weeks old and had dry nappies all the time. I mentied this to the halth visitor who weighed him and he ahd lost a lot of weight. She suggested topping up with formula - or risk being taken into hospital - with my DD who was only 20 months old at the time and a DH who had just started a new job, the thought of going into hospital was just not going to be logistically possible. So I hired an electric breast pump and expressed all the time - so I could tell how much he was getting. Virtually nothing was the answer! Maximum I ever managed to express was 1oz. SO I started topping up with formula - and continued breastfeeding him as well - though in the end he just gave up on the breast - wouldn't look near it. Just wriggled away from it any time I tried to feed him. Don't blame him - there clearly wasn't much there anyway.

Now if I were to replay the whole episode now - in the rational cold light of day, I would have seen a breast counsellor, probably taken to bed for a while with DS and tried to re-establish my supply. But in the murky half-life that is normal for newly delivered mums - that rational sensible stuff didn't filter through the mist. I can only describle being consumed by an overwhelming instinct that my child was starving and needed to be fed

I have to say that my upset at the way all this panned out, was compounded by the information that Mears posted on 'that thread', as my DS has suffered very badly with glue ear as a baby and has residual speech problems resulting from this - it turns out that he is dairy allergic, and the formula was certainly not the best thing for him to have been on...

But I would rather that the facts of why breastmilk is best are known, adn so I am glad that Mears posted the information, but it has re-opened woulds that I thought had long healed

I too, suffered a lot of pain when breastfeeding and thought that it was normal to do so and so I shouldn't complain too much. I remember the feeling of a fishing line going from the nipples down to my toe nails and trying to tug them out! I know that sounds mad, but that's exactly what it felt like. As I was in a new house, in a new area, with no family or friends for many miles, support was limited. I did breastfeed both ds and dd but, looking back, I wouldn't put myself through all the pain I suffered with ds again. I had thrush and mastitis and very little sleep as ds would only sleep on his front. SIDS was very much in the news at the time and so I had him either on the breast or sleeping on my shoulder for most of the hours each day and night. I don't know how I got through it, and I wouldn't do it again. I breastfed both ds and dd exclusively for 4.5 months. I fed Ds for 7 months in total and gave up the day I knew I was pregnant with dd. Ironically, I could have had a lot of knowledgeable support from my own family, but they were 4 hours drive away with young families of their own, so I battled through alone. This was 11 years ago, btw. I think everyone deserves support and respect which ever way they feed their baby. So much of the parenting that follows is much more important IMO than the breast/bottle feeding issue. Lets support everyone!

i agree with the other posters about better support needed on the hospital ward, both with bfing itself and practically to help establish bfing; i had a gruelling round of expressing/cup feeding/bfing - but i would have expressed more frequently if I had had more help with something as simple as washing the breastpump and also if i could have had more help with food - lunch/dinner would always appear at the most inconvenient times! the odd sympathetic midwife would provide assistance with cup feeding, or ask an HCA to wash my breastpump for me, but that was the exception rather than the rule. i know it might sound feeble but i really really struggled even at days 4 and 5 post labour to get to the ward kitchen to wash up. another problem was that it was impossible to get help with bfing for one or two hours during the evening when there was a handover between shifts.

The stories here are desperate. Someone said there should be more breastfeeding counsellors....there will never be enough trained, volunteer support, and the real answer lies in better training of health professionals.

There are about 600,000 babies born every year, and something like 400,000 of them start to breastfeed. In total, there are something like 700 breastfeeding counsellors (from four different organisations) and probably several hundred 'peer counsellors' trained to offer support but not to help with more difficult, quasi climical situations. All of them are volunteers.

Do the maths!

Remember, there will be limits on their time. One poster said the breastfeeding counsellors 'didn't have time' to show her how to breastfeed. This is quite possible, sadly. In some places, there may be only one breastfeeding counsellor for hundreds of miles (literally). Or only a handful in a large city (like London). I sometimes have to say to mothers 'I am sorry, I will speak to you on the phone, but this week, I cannot see you.' I then try to refer to a breastfeeding support group, but even they are not everywhere.

The only good thing about ds being in scbu (in shock after getting stuck twice) for 8 days is that we had all that time surrounded by midwives who had all the time in the world to show us how to breastfeed properly day and night. There were only 2 other babas in scbu so spent lots and lots of time in there with mw's and ds, learning to feed. And i would say it did take the week to get the knack and the confidence. We only stopped at 9mths because i was pg and totally exhausted, but im sure bf would have been finished alot sooner without that week of intensive support.

I think that you cant blame the NHS for not helping enough. I had the breast feeding message from the moment I was admitted into hospital and because I was finding it difficult they wouldnt discharge me until they had this expert with a big pump come around and see me!! There were posters everywhere, a network of mums to 'help' and 3 leaflets!

If breastfeeding is so natural and great then it should come naturally? If this is the way it was intended then why do you need an army of midwives yanking your boob around!

pudding gal

well childbirth is natural and great but it don't come easily so don't think that particular argument works I'm afraid