Why can't we just all breatsfeed?

[pupuce]

Seeing the recent debates on breastfeeding, I didn't want to take part in the discussion as I didn't feel I could add to the debate but I was reading this and thought.... why is it that so many women who ended up bottlefeeding have stories of "not enough milk", "baby not thriving", etc.... so we have a BF rate in this country of barely 1 in 2 babies breastfed after 1 week (that's not impressive if you do know that breast is best)... why is it that the Swedes have 98%....
I am sure it's a combination of factors.... but it does mean that too many people in this country have a "wrong reason" for not BF.... surely many women have not enough information about milk production to feel that they truly didn't have enough milk....

OK - am I starting world war 3 ??? hope not

I can't BELIEVE these threads! Surely we all love each other, don't we? It was a breeze br'ing dd1, but totally impossible with dd2. Anyone that chooses not to BF is fine in my book. Ooooogh, lovely M'netters ... really

Does anybody knows what is the maternity leave for Swedish women. I would not be surprised if it extends over a year and can be shared by the father (I think Austria have something like that)

pupuce, I think the reason people get defensive is because there are certainly some people on this thread who have recently had a real battle trying to feed, but couldn't. When this happens to you, you do tend to feel like a failure, and some B/F mums do love to lord it up and rub your nose in it (although personally I'm not getting particularly riled because I've always suspected the lord it up types do so to cover up their own mothering deficiencies ). I know you aren't being insulting, more inquisitive, but judging by recent topics, it is rather inappropriate timing. And can I just say, I also own a 4x4 and a huge petrol guzzling status symbol one at that lol!!!

pupace - regarding guilt, of course you feel guilty, you are constantly being told breast is best so when you switch you do feel bad about it. Eventually it goes but certainly in my case I felt guilty about it.

My post was supposed to say that I would have found it difficult to breastfeed without the support I received from others x

Mizmiz, what I meant is that in the society that I have grown up, it is not something that you do openly in public, it happens, but the society doesn't accept women showing their breast in public (or mainly, in front of men that are located everywhere)even for the action of breastfeeding. Discrete freastfeeding is OK if you are with your female friends but rarely in public.

I believe it's a year for the mom or the dad. it is far more generous.

I know my timing wasn't great but it really was a quetsion I wanted to ask when i read the other threads.

I have been on mumsnet a long time (5 years) and I (usually) don't get into the inflammatory debates (well i ddi years ago on Gina Ford!) but many mumsnetters know me well enough (I think) to know that I try to support and encourage women to have a good experience based on valid information.

It's very interesting pupuce- what is the situation in Sweden with support? Is the country awash with breastfeeding counsellors, or are they not needed because bottlefeeding is not seen as such an automatic option? (that is not trying to get at bottlefeeders). I had a nightmare time feeding ds, rather like mummy2steven's up until the readmission bit. He had nothing but bottles for the first 24 hours in spite of my efforts (his head was quite badly damaged from the ventouse and he was in a lot of pain), but I never really thought of bottles as being a viable alternative and just persisted no matter what. I think if I had had people around me telling me that bottles would be much easier maybe I would have found it harder to stick to my guns. I knew the statistics, knew the science, knew that n=1 is not a reason to bottlefeed against the weight of evidence, but basically I was lucky in my support. Is that kind of scenario why it works out more often in Sweden?

pupuce - I have on previous occasion praised the general quality of your advice and general concern for MNetters and would reiterate that. In turn I hope you appreciated the honest spirit in which I made my comments about my experience. it's just unfortunate that for quite a few MNetterrs, me included, this type of thread touches a raw nerve.

i agree the guilt does go but i was almost single minded prior to DD's birth. my hospital bag had lanolin cream, nursing bras, breastfeeding book and large nursing pillow - and that's about it.

actually it was selfish feelings though because i read something that suggested higher breast cancer rates in the west are linked to lower breastfeeding rates and i started getting paranoid (though clearly the report linking alcohol and breast cancer didn't affect me so much...)

are breasts sexualised so much in sweden? i read in a book a while back that most women in this country (who have not had children) think of their breasts as purely sexual objects and almost see it as wrong to put a baby to them. i can identify with this feeling many years ago and before the idea of becoming a mother came into my head (as i was reading the blue line that is) i thought breastfeeding was disgusting.

this subject is hard for mummies who started off b/fing and then stopped for whatever reason, these are the mummies who hate these conversations and get all heated when discussing because i guess they feel guilt, they know they started off with the best but then stopped for their own benefit but in the long term was for the benefit of the child as happy mummy = happy child!

we all know that bottle feeding will not seriously harm your child. my mum breast fed me for a couple of months and then bottle, i'm fine! most people we know were bottlefed.

i decided to breastfeed when i was pregnant and stuck to it through pain, blood, cracked nipples and 3 bouts of mastitus because i loved the benefits of breastfeeding and i enjoyed the precious time it gave the two of us to sit somewhere and relax together.

...............but my very good friend had a different experience, she didnt have the blood, cracked nipples or pain in fact she seemed to be a natural, her baby latched on brilliantly but she didnt enjoy it, it made her so down, everytime i called to speak to her in those early days instead of words of joy and happiness at her new baby she sounded like she was always on the brink of breaking down. i felt so sorry for her and seriously worried about her health. we had a long chat and she wanted to stop but felt guilty. we talked it through and she decided to stop. it was a long time after before i could comfortably mention breastfeeding to her.

we have to remember when talking about these subjects that we should not or have the rigt to judge any woman. we dont know each other or understand our personal situations. the last thing we want to do is make a person break down and cry at her pc because of a thread.

all im saying is think about what you say and why you say it.

i am just saying this as i hope my friend does not read these threads as i know it will bring up all those guilty feelings she experienced and upset her.

its not worth it.

I planned to breastfeed thinking it would be best for baby, best for me and easy peasy. How wrong I was. Became engorged in the hospital on day 3, expressed milk which had blood in it so had to drain all that milk to clear it before giving it to baby. Got down to feeding, had cracked nipples, lumps, sweats, shivers and shakes, had to have boiling hot baths at 3am knowing that once I started feeling cold there was no way I could warm up with an electric blanket, heavy cashmere dressing gown and bed socks, hot water bottle etc. T'was awful. Got myself a double milk expresser so expressed every 3-4 hours as much as I could, usually 9oz per 20 minute session. After three weeks of this and being a 32 J (am usually a 32c) I had had enough. Gave up - didn't let myself cry - felt I had let my baby and DH down but needed to restore my sanity. DH described the scene of me expressing milk with my J cup breasts as the Hammer House of Horrors! I smile at it now but it wasn't funny at the time.

My C-Section on the other hand was super dooper. People would ask me what it was like to have a baby, I told them that I wouldn't recommend breastfeeding but my C-Section was wonderful. How daft is that. One natural the other totally unnatural.

I produced plenty of milk so that wasn't the problem. I suppose I didn't realise the commitment and the time it took to sit still - about an hour. I did the same for my second baby but it was much less of a shock. I don't know where you get "98% of Swedes breastfeed, etc," but I would say they are much more comfortable with their bodies, they are into a more natural lifestyle, etc. But over in the UK at least we are doing better than the French. I was told that new mothers are not encouraged to breastfeed. Does anybody know about France in particular?

I don't know why Swedish women have such an easier time... it must be a combination of factors like amternity keave and indeed as others have said, if everyone BF it is far more common, a "good" example and there must be more help after the birth.

But when you read all these stories about BF difficulty - it MUST be the same for the Swedish moms so what makes them persevere and not us ?

I wonder though, in Sweden, do they provide mums in hospital with formula like they do here? I b/f both times while in hospital, and I don't know whether formula is provided the full time you are in hospital or not, but after my 2nd ceasarean (which I had to have because of a small pelvis, in case a debate "why do so many women have ceasarean's" crops up ) the healthcare assistants refused to help me move into a suitable feeding position, even though DD2 hadn't fed in over 24 hours and I felt like saying "fine, give me a bottle then".

probably the things we have already mentioned here?

chicpea- who suggested draing breastmilk from blood???? I have never heard that and it isn't information in have been given (and I am a trained BF counsellor!)

Maybe formula in Sweden is as expensive as their beer!!

mumytummy - I have done the caesarean debate before LOL

Ok off to bed.
thank you to all of you for making this an interesting read.... and I didn't think it got nasty....

Sleep well everyone

When I said drain the breast milk, I meant that I had to express and throw it away as it contained blood - looked like cafe latte - and I was told by the midwives at the hospital that I couldn't give it to baby as she would bring the whole lot up. I don't think I explained myself properly in the previous post.

i was told to continure b/f even if there was blood in milk. my breasts cracked and bled, i just carried on... i will say that all the pain and blood stopped after 2 weeks and then it was lovely. 2 weeks of pain was worth 8 months b/f for me.

Bf feeding difficulty obviously must still happen in Sweden but what if.. because they all mainly breastfeed they deal with these problems before they get too bad as they are better educated about positions etc. Also if they have others around them who have breastfed (mums etc) then they would hopefully be able to identify a problem quite quickly. How long does it take for a mum in this country to realise that this pain really is not normal, and therfore is it harder to continue when problems have got that painful hope this makes sense.

And mummylove, did your baby bring up the milk as it contained blood which they can't digest?

no - she was fine, the milk had blood in it but not enough to make it red or anything to be honest i was not expressing at that point so i cant say how much blood but i remember my nipples cracked and bleeding.

i guess if it was a lot then obviously it cant be a good thing.

Mummulove, what colour was your breastmilk when it contained blood?