Why can't we just all breatsfeed?

[pupuce]

Seeing the recent debates on breastfeeding, I didn't want to take part in the discussion as I didn't feel I could add to the debate but I was reading this and thought.... why is it that so many women who ended up bottlefeeding have stories of "not enough milk", "baby not thriving", etc.... so we have a BF rate in this country of barely 1 in 2 babies breastfed after 1 week (that's not impressive if you do know that breast is best)... why is it that the Swedes have 98%....
I am sure it's a combination of factors.... but it does mean that too many people in this country have a "wrong reason" for not BF.... surely many women have not enough information about milk production to feel that they truly didn't have enough milk....

OK - am I starting world war 3 ??? hope not

My grandparents quite elderly. Well dead now infact but seemed to think everyone breast fed then - during the wars. May be it was just a little pocket of people and I am misinformed then.

flum - my mum was born in 1957, so well after the war. DHs mum was born circa 1950. so it might just be the difference that ten years makes. my mum certainly thought that most babies around her age would have been breast fed, and that my gran would have been unusual for formula feeding.

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I think that actually this has a lot to do with culture as well as our individual choices. In fact, I'd argue that our cultural expectations actually "feed" (ho ho) into our individual choices and experiences in ways we don't always recognise and in any case can't always challenge. That is why Sweden has less of an issue in this area, I'd guess. Their dominant cultural position on breastfeeding shapes women's individual experiences more uniformly and, it seems, positively. The culture of breastfeeding as an achieveable default position shapes what women do; and what women do in turn reinforces the culture of breastfeeding as a positive norm. This affects the perceptions of the next generation who will have experienced breasts as milk making (as well as sexy) from their very earliest days and will value their milk making potential as a good.

In this country we have had a dominant culture of a medicalised and commercialised approach to child birth and infancy, including breastfeeding, for many, many years, together with strong messages about the status of motherhood and the purpose of breasts. Combine this with a weaker but passionate and emphatically evidence based minority message on the health and emotional benefits of breastfeeding, throw in the physiological shakiness and heightened emotions of a new mother and, voila!, you have a recipe for shaping some individual experiences of breastfeeding into the guilt-ridden nightmares described here. These terrible experiences in turn totally reinforce the cultural idea that breastfeeding tends to be difficult, traumatic and not possible as a default position- how could they not? Cue a targeted mail out advertising some cute looking feeding bottles being brandished by a slim, small breasted model holding a delightfully smiley baby. What do people do? They latch on (ho ho again) to this message because it chimes perfectly with what they're going through. Their children then internalise bottles as a good and find reinforcement (overt and subliminal) for this everywhere they look. When they have their own kids and consider how to feed them they will almost certainly face exactly the same dilemmas as their parents did.

There was always artificial milk for babies, well before formula. It was sometimes maize meal gruel, or cow's milk boiled and sugared, or condensed milk etc etc but it was very much a minority thing - probably at least partly because it was quite rubbish, and of course, because it had to be home-made.
I think that support makes a difference, but the dominant culture more so. And that probably makes for quite a bit of the difference in breastfeeding rates between younger mothers and older mothers - at my age, everyone breastfed, or so it seemed. However, I am pretty confident in many ways, but felt increasingly uncomfortable feeding as my contemporaries stopped at 3 or six months. I finished feeding at just over a year (having mixed fed) partly because it was fine for me and I wanted to wear dresses again, but also because I felt increasingly isolated and was aware that there is a lot of public hostility to breastfeeding an older child. It becomes almost a secret, furtive activity
I have started to feel increasingly uneasy about the Little Britain sketch with the adult man breastfeeding. I think it is misogynist in the extreme, and can only make breastfeeding less acceptable and more of a dirty joke than ever, and tbh I find it quite upsetting. I very much doubt it would be considered funny or acceptable in a country where breastfeeding was just the way you feed babies, instead of a country where breastfeeding is all too often regarded as an eccentric minority fetish.

ScrummyMummy - put so eloquently I can't help but agree totally with you. As with everything in life I think one can only really comment once your tried. Before I had DD I was amazed at the negative comments I received from 2 pals regarding bf. Both said that I shouldn't feel obliged to bf just because it's best, that so many things can go wrong, that my nipples would be sore and cracked, that I'd never get a break etc. etc. Both had tried and failed to bf themselves so bottle fed their kids - I have no issue with that.

As it happens I did bf and had no problems but that doesn't mean I'm not sympathetic to those who cannot or will not for their own personal reasons.

It made me think that it is a real shame that some people may be talked out of even trying to bf because of bad experiences of others.

And to tie in with SM's point on culture - I think British people in general do have many deep rooted insecurities and hangups (could go off on tons of other threads as to why) and to make themselves feel better they try to counter others' opinions or experiences. I apply that to all manner of people, not just nursing mothers. Will probably get pelters for that one but please try to see what I'm meaning in the wider context.

What I don't like about this thread is that the initial question seems to imply that we all SHOULD breastfeed. What is wrong with a country who bottle feeds half of it's babies? I don't aspire to be like Sweden. I don't actually have anything against it either.

Also, conversations like this one most certainly DO thrust a sense of guilt upon many mums (especially new ones).

How much better is breast feeding? I read an article after DD was born that said breast milk was better, but that the benefits were all gained in the first four months. So, breastfeeding for 8 months actually provided no further benefit to the child than if mum had switched him/her to bottle at four months of age.

I accept that breast milk is better. But, I wonder how much better. It doesn't really seem to be a huge difference in the child's future health.

Uwila - there have been many threads on the benefits of b/feeding an older baby. Your milk doesn't suddenly start being nutritionally and immunologically worthless at 4 months. I think you may have misread the article. It takes several years (about 6) for a person's immune system to develop so long term breastfeedng can help. Obviously its more importnat for a newborn to get b/milk than a 6 month old and so on but a mum isn't wasting her time by continuing to b/feed an 8 month, or a 1 year old. There are research articles ad nauseum upon how these benefits are felt well into adulthood too.

There was no moral imperative in the original question - I am sorry but you have taken that out of it. Nowhere does the word 'should' arise. It is a perfectly reasonable question. The fact is that most mums want to breastfeed and pupuce is asking why they don't.

Parenting in itself engenders guilt and its all around this site on discussions of smacking, working mums, smoking, drinking etc.... however no-one there says "stop talking about this - it is making me feel guilty" so why should a discussion about breastfeeding be any different.

The thing that puzzles me is that it is clearly a skill which needs to be learnt - maybe because our breasts trade off sexual attributes and BF attributes (too fat). Why can't we just have long nipples which baby could easily suck? Clearly assistance from other women during childbirth and after has a long long history. And that's what seems to be lacking here - a visit for half an hour from the midwife seems barely adequate to learn the skills you need to feed well and without pain (having just - at 4wks with my second baby - managed to get my nipples in a reasonable state!)

So many threads on this subject at present!
Apologies if this has been mentioned before, I have to admit I haven't read all the mesages.
My perception is that some women are just not capable of breastfeeding due to some physiological or medical reasons. And it is such a personal choice nowadays as well with the alternative of perfectly good formula milk available.
I'm quite certain this is not a new thing, since the human population started eveolving, millions of babies must have died because their mothers could not breastfeed them and formula is a recent invention after all.
It would be interesting to do a comparison with the animal world and find out what happens with mamals, how many cannot give milk to their baby animals and these subsequently die. Probably no research done on this subject...
And on top of everything else, all the figures are not exactly accurate, the world is a very big place and nobody can tell for sure how many mothers choose/can breastfeed.
These were just a few of my ideas going around my little head... Anyone else think on these lines?

oh, and I absolutely agree with you florenceuk : the need for one to one support is crucial. Ideally from female family memebers, close comunity (not applicable in this country) and hospitals. Bokks can only tell you so much, doesn't really make much sense until you try it yourself.

I'm probably about to be hated but

I didn't have the foggiest idea how to go about breastfeeding .. but DS did .. as soon as he was born and held near my boob (despite being a c-section baby) he latched on and sucked

Yes it hurt for the first few weeks .. but my sister said to just count to ten and gradually over time it lessened so I got to 6 then 3 then just stopped counting (yet I still switched him to formula at 3.5 months and don't regret that decision)

DD was much the same (still feeding at 6 months and no intentions of formula feeding because its so easy and convenient for us)

Must say if I had experienced any of the pain that others talk about .. thrush, mastitis, blocked duct, refusal to latch and shrieking baby I would probably have given up

So luck has something to do with it too

Have read as many of the posts as I could and would agree with some of them that many women fail to breastfeed because they don't get the required supporr. I found it very difficult for the first few days but was lucky to have very supportive midwives, both in hospital and when I got back home, who were committed to helping dd latch on properly. It still makes me smile wryly when I remember sitting on the sofa with dh on one side and midwife on the other, boob out (me, not midwife , with her manhandling it trying to get dd to latch on. I ended up feeding successfully for a year and loving it but I am sure that I would not have done if I hadn't (a) had such great midwives and (b) been so bloody-minded that I was determined not to give up. I didn't help that mil and fil kept saying "have you thought about bottle-feeding?" and making me feel uncomfortable every time dd needed a feed.

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There is a HUGE amount of pressure on women to breastfeed in my area. So much so that antenatal classes do not cover bottle feeding and you have to request a 1- to 1 on that subject if that is your choice - and that is after having to convince the midwives that you are not wiling to try breast feeding. There is also a lot of professional support on offer after the birth in hospital, BUT often women do not stay in hospital long enough to benefit from this support on tap.

Once they have left, many do not have mothers who breast-fed themselves around for advice and support, and are quite cut off and isolated from social networks. Especially if you live far away from family and have been in a working environment before the birth.

The idea of going back to work when the baby is 6 months (as is common practice)means that you know breast feeding will probably stop then anyhow so gives you less incentive to make a go of it if it is difficult.

For myself, I suffered intense pain and bleeding, my baby had jaundice (which bottle feeding would have helped and breat feeding made worse) and she was taken away from me and under treatment lamps because of this (a horrible experience for both of us). She was also clinically de-hydrated. I ended up doing mixed feeding and feeling very guilty about it. I could maybe have stuck to breast feeding but it would have endangered my baby's physical health and my own mental health.

I think there should be real, free and educated CHOICE on this issue, and IMO I experienced too much pressure from our society to breast feed and certainly not too little.

There is a lot we don't know about sore nipples, Succi....I do come across mothers (very occasionaally) whose latch appears ok, and who have very sore nipples. If the nipple is cracked or grazed and/or possibly distorted when it comes out the baby's mouth, then I am certain it is attachment that it the cause - skin doesn't break down and nipples don't distort in any other way. But there are mothers, rarely, who have nothing to show for their soreness but who are still in pain. This might be due to something mechanical, even so, like scar tissue in the breast/nipple, thrush....or maybe it is something hormonal making their skin extra sensitive. I believe everyone who tells me they are in pain and I try to work out ways to make it better for them.

In my experience, the vast majority of sore nipples are connected with a poor latch, which can itself be due to many things - baby not opening wide, tongue tie, nipple going in to the wrong part of the mouth, baby held in a position that doesn't assist a good latch.

No one should expect it to hurt, and if it does, they should seek help.

Socci, not Succi

posyhairdresser - your horrible experience is a sad one. The fact s you were so sore and your baby was dehdrated and jaundiced are likely to be due to the same cause - ineffective feeding caused by the baby not attaching in the best possible way. This should have been spotted by the people looking after you - clearly it wasn't, or not soon enough. Bottle feeding would not have helped jaundice - how do you work that one out? Your baby needed more fluids and effective bf would have done it.

Can I ask you - looking back, were there other signs apart from the pain and the bleeding and the jaundice that things were not going well ie the baby was not getting the milk he needed? can you remember when his poos turned yellow and how much and how often he produced them?

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Hi tiktok! I had a midwife supervise every single feed for 1 week so it seems odd that the latching on could still have been wrong.

The jaundice was caused by bruising to the head during the birth, but I have been told by doctors that breast milk is slightly worse for clearing this up than formula. I can't remember the details you ask about as it was 5 years ago!

posy - many midwives are useless at spotting a poor latch.

The info about jaundice is based on the fact that we know sufficient fluids can clear jaundice more quickly than insufficient fluids - a baby who is bottle fed from birth is likely to take in more fluids than a breastfed baby, and of course you can see how much the baby is getting and sit there trying to get a few more mls in....but there's nothing special in the formula itself. It used to be the case that jaundiced breastfed babies were given formula for this very reason - to get more fluids in. Now we know better, and know these babies should just be enabled to get more breastmilk in them.

Also, posy - your nipples were cracked and bleeding in the first week, and there is no possible reason why this would be, apart from a poor latch (or I suppose some sort of dermatitis, but you would have known about that before). Skin breaks down when it is damaged.

One of the problem - and we see it in some of the posts on this thread - which I find very interesting... and thank you for not turning it into a slanging match !
So I was saying one of the problem is lack of correct information... This thread is an example... formula per se is NOT better to get rid of jaundice, blood in milk is not a problem,...

Today I heard a woman say she had to stop breastfeeding as she had to take some medication... when asked she confirmed that she had not asked if that medication was incompatible with breastfeeding... a pharmacist could answer and if not breastfeeding helplines have the resources to check (and will have the right info). The truth was that (in HER case) it was a good excuse to stop BF for her own reasons... but I was cross that she had to find an excuse - which happen to be erroneous - and therefore spread wrong information.
Many drugs are compatible with breastfeeding.
She doesn't like BF and she didn't want to continue.... I guesss it is her perception of the comments she will get that made her find an excuse.... sad really

I hope I don't say the wrong thing here! I b/f - always wanted to, sought out info, and was glad I could. I found I got lots of negative comments, like "just stop if you're tired, let your husband take over", "God, I don't know how you can stand it, no wine for months", "how can you face getting your tits out in public", to quote but a few. B/F still has a long way to go in this country, I think. However, being on the end of these types of comments makes me realise whatt it must be like to be on the end of negative bottle feeding comments, and for that reason I keep quiet and accept that everyone has their own reasons for feeding whatever way they choose. I chose b/f for myself and my baby only.

tiktok - your comments seem to make sense to me but the implication that many midwives cannot spot a poor latch seems terrible to me. If they can't spot this, who can and what hope is there?