I wish people wouldn't be so quick to advise others to mix feed

[NineUnlovelyTinselDecorations]

I know I am going to get jumped on for this but I am going to say it anyway.

I have noticed a few threads of late where a BF mum is struggling and asking for advice or support to carry on. Some posters have said something along the lines of "I know it's not advised, but I introduced a FF at bedtime/mixed fed and it was fine." It's not that people aren't entitled to share their own opinion and experiences, but it worries me sometimes that new mums/people struggling with BF will not read the It's Not Advised part but only the It Worked For Us part.

There's a reason that it's not advised, which is that it very often inteferes with the supply/demand of BF and one FF often turns into more and the end of BF. I know that it works for some people, but my own experience of exclusively expressing EBM for my son was that I was able to build up and maintain a plentiful supply by expressing 4 times a day. But for the vast majority of women that would not be the case (I would have followed advice and done it 8 times etc if I hadn't been very ill). Therefore I don't tell women who are struggling to express for their babies "It's okay, it's not recommended but I only expressed 4 times and we were fine". Because I think that would be doing other women a disservice.

What do you think? Shall I get me coat?

I think we should all share our experiences in an honest and straightforward way. I would rather people did this, and then someone else came and chipped in with 'but of course it can affect supply', than that people who did it and didn't have this problem kept their mouth shut. I think witholding information because of the risk that the hearer may only listen to part of what you tell them would be patronising. If you are concerned, just emphasise the risks more and let them come to their own conclusions.

Just my twopennorth

Yes that's fair comment Kathy. If people tell the whole story then fair enough, for example if someone mixed fed from the start and for a year then good for her, but if they gave a FF at night to get some sleep but only actually BF for a couple of weeks then say that too. I'm thinking of a friend of mine whose SIL advised her to do this as it worked for her...and only after my friend's supply was messed up and she gave up BF did SIL share the vital information that she only BF for 8 days!

Well I would say that your opinions and experiences are as valuable as any other mums.

I think, without knowing how a woman feels about giving her baby formula, telling her to top up is a bit of a glib "it'll fix it" suggestion.

For me, in the early throes of bfing, "give him a bottle" wouldn't be a helpful thing to say (and it wasn't when DH said it to me in the middle of the night, feeding 2wo DS1 and sobbing over his latch!). It also wasn't a helpful thing for the sodding midwife to say when I was trying to establish DS2's bfing in hospital.

I also think there ought to be more awareness of the impact giving formula can have on breastfeeding, but, in fairness, that's often stated on threads on MN - on other parenting sites ime there's often less awareness of that.

I would also like it if more people knew about formula in the wider sense, but going by this thread I started not many people want to hear it - I can totally understand why that is, but I think that advising new mums to give formula because it worked for you and you were happy to do it may be a bit inappropriate - without knowing how she feels about bfing and ffing - and on a thread where the mother is asking for bfing support, not "permission" to give formula.

I agree with Kathy. I have said before that FF saved BF for me. That was my experience and I wish I'd had the help earlier.

IMHO, the problem people have with bfing is that there isn't enough support and advice on bfing, not that formula exists.

Once I had had enough advice on bfing and my daughter had caught on too, the bfing took off. But in the mean time, she had to be fed something.

I think the most important advice is that it can take time and persistence.

And I do think your last sentiment is wrong to be honest. I needed honesty about what works and honesty about other women's experiences, not generic stuff.

MAJ, yes, that's the other thing I meant to say - for some women, ff for a short time saves their bf. Strange, but true.

But for many others, it scuppers it utterly

For me, one bottle of formula would've been the end of bf - in the early days, it was the only thing I felt I could get right. And I was going to "bloody well do it", so I really didn't appreciate people telling me "a bottle won't hurt".

But Margo, don't you think that when you are feeling knackered and vulnerable, and expressing a minimum of 8 times a day is what you have to do, to hear someone say "I expressed 4 times" (even with the proviso that it isn't recommended) might tip the balance and make you think it could be okay for you too? Because if I say it was okay for me, it is unlikely that 98 other women are going to say to the same person that expressing 4 times meant they had no supply. So although it is information, it isn't by any means the full picture.

But I hear what you say about FF being necessary for BF sometimes - my DS had it whilst my supply was built up, or he would have starved.

Can I just say that in the normal course of bf, formula isn't necessary at all. My previous post may have erred on the side of glib.

yes, get your coat, a hat , a pair of gloves.. etc etc

I agree with OP. In fact, I have often thought this but felt a bit shy of saying so.

When I was having problems feeding my firstborn , I had all and sundry (including a doctor) advising me to give the 'odd' bottle of formula. Our problem was that my DD was allergic to cow's milk protein and this was what was interferring with feeding. Introducing formula would not have helped and indeed would have made the problem worse.

Personally I think it is irresponsible to suggest formula as a possiblity unless at the same time the person warns of the risk to breastfeeding and gives advice on how to avoid problems. Also formula feeding although it may help in the short term for some babies does not address the underlying problem in any way and therefore is not a solution.

I see your point nineunlovely...

I just think it is actually very complex and there are as many answers as there are women. I was desperate not to use formula because I had heard the "formula will end bfing for you" thing and I can see the logic too. But sometimes the situation is more complex than that and as was the case with me (and you) it helped rather than hindered.

I was advised to do this by a very lovely and very gentle breastfeeding consultant who helped me no end with bfing so I'm quite keen for people to understand the whole picture. But maybe if you don't have access to a one-to-one adviser like I did, and you just have to think about public messages on a very general level, the OP makes sense.

I just wish really everyone who needs one could have a bf consultant to hold their hand through the early weeks.

QUOTE it's no worse tha hv's whose only infant nutriton training is a day course by a formla company being quick to advise top-up bottles.

But this is terrible to the mothers on the receiving end of this type of cop out advice. I go to a 'support' group where the woman running it pushes 'one bottle doesn't hurt' and it has a terrible affect on the nursing mothers attitude to exclusive breastfeeding and several mums have swapped to full formula feeding, with this kind of 'advice'

I wonder if the 'one bottle won't hurt' is another advertising idea from the forumla companies, like the 'don't make women feel guilty by comparing formula with breastmilk' campaign

Plus I don't honestly see how increasing my workload by buying and preparing and cleaning up after a bottle feed, is benefial to getting more rest ? It sounds like a lot more faff than just doing the actual feed in the first feed.

Surely it should be a better solution to let the mum go to sleep early with baby in cot alongside (or cosleeping) the main bed and just feed lying down/sleeping and then back to cot and back to sleep.

I think that this thread shows how completely different the experiences of different mums can be. I have completely the opposite experience to the OP. I know several mums who got it stuck in their head that BF was an all or nothing thing and so when they struggled with BF they gave up and went over to FF completely. I think if they had used some FF to help them through the tough days then perhaps BF might have worked out in the long run.

I guess the hard thing about all this is that there is no one solution for everyone and so it is important for us to share all our different experiences. IMO FF can sometimes help with BF but it depends on the cause of the problem. As the OP says FF is unlikely to help if the problem is one of supply, but perhaps it can help when feeding becomes just too painful or when personal circumstances make it difficult.

Personally I BF ds1 until 16 months and am still BFing ds2. The occasional use of FF has made this a whole lot less stressful and has never caused any supply problems.

I can see why you wish that, but when women talk from personal experience, and mixed feeding worked for them, they want to offer that advice purely to try to help someone else, not with the intent on making BF more difficult.

it is like women talking about how they coped with labour, for example, for some women, an epidural was a godsend, allowed them to relax and sleep their way to 10 cm and they push their baby out, for others it slows or even stops labour and creates the need for more intervention.

both have had the same thing, an epidural, and two totally different experiences, does not mean one is right to advise it , and one isn;t

same as for those who intro;d a bottle, if it worked for them, should they not advise it because it didn;t work for someone else?

we mumsnetters offer advice, opinion , our own experience, it is up to the person asking the question to make their own mind up?

I agree with Kathy and margoandjerry - I'm another one for whom ff saved bf.

That's definitely not to say that it should be pushed by hv's or anyone in an advisory capacity, but the fantastic thing about mumsnet is the honesty with which women share their experiences. It would be a very bad thing imo if that was lost for fear of being "off-message"

MAJ - I agree with you.

If there was appropriate support and advice from someone who knows their stuff - particularly to go with the suggestion of mixed-feeding, then I have no problem with that.

But it really does depend on what the problem is. For example, when I had thrush, it probably would have been less agonising for me to express milk and maybe dump some, and give DS formula every other feed. (Dump it to assist preventing the re-infection of thrush), which would in turn, helped to heal the open sores on my nipples. But, you'd need someone who really knew their stuff about b/feeding to prescribe appropriate action, and provide the support to someone going through such an experience.

Mix-feeding, in the general sense, really isnt a miracle cure.

And yes, Fio - I agree with that too.

But as i was trying to say, albeit clumsily before, it does depend on the problem, and any issues with supply wont be fixed by formula (they'll be worsened in fact). Nor will issues with non-sleeping babies, IMVHO.

i think there is great support for breastfeeding out there - phonelines, drop in clinics etc - i think that sometimes people email on here because they have tried these routes as well as health visitors etc and might need other help

i breastfed successfully twice with great help from a health visitor and an nct counsellor BUT i also needed to introduce formula now and then and it helped. I would have liked to have had support for this at the time as I felt guilty.

Looking back five years now i think it is bonkers that i felt guilty about how i fed my babies - there is so much more to parenting than what goes in their mouths- what a waste of emotion and energy it was - so i think all views should be well represented on here to show a broad picture

My local HCA says a bottle of formula as the last night feed ALWAYS equals a baby sleeping though the night

I have read a couple of studies on Kellymom which says introduction of formula / solids have no effect on sleeping patterns.

Yet I have also been told by people who know what they are talking about, that in reality babies who have a formula feed in the evening might sleep longer as the baby needs to deal with a stomach full of hard to digest forumla.

I am very confused by this 'one bottle' issue, when there does not clear conclusion.

It is soooo hard to advise on bf-ing. hats off the bf-ing counsellors (I mean the good ones). You must have the ability to read minds to know the best way to go. I personally stay clear of things.

I think mixed feeding has a place. Where the mother is in pain, needs a respite and she is about to give up completely. It could save the bf-ing and give her time to recover, maybe she only continues for another month or two (because she affects her supply), but that is better than nothing. Maybe a ff breathing space allows her to enjoy bf-ing at a later stage so much that she throws away the bottle and goes commando (and allows supply to build up again).

Dunno. I for one dislike people telling me to give a bottle. With dd, I was strongly advised to supplement because of her health problems and low weight gain. She screamed every day for hours because I was trying to starve her into taking a bottle. Finally against the advice of ALL health professionals, I switched to exclusive bf-ing at 5 months. Never looked back - both of us happy as clams. And BTW, her weight gain still remained on the same line.

NG, there's nothing in my borough except a (lovely) NCT bf counsellor and a handful of trainees.

Nothing.

No peer support, no drop-ins, no specialist bf clinics at the hospital.

Nothing.

And it's a big, highly populated borough.

I'm on the case though