I wish people wouldn't be so quick to advise others to mix feed

[NineUnlovelyTinselDecorations]

I know I am going to get jumped on for this but I am going to say it anyway.

I have noticed a few threads of late where a BF mum is struggling and asking for advice or support to carry on. Some posters have said something along the lines of "I know it's not advised, but I introduced a FF at bedtime/mixed fed and it was fine." It's not that people aren't entitled to share their own opinion and experiences, but it worries me sometimes that new mums/people struggling with BF will not read the It's Not Advised part but only the It Worked For Us part.

There's a reason that it's not advised, which is that it very often inteferes with the supply/demand of BF and one FF often turns into more and the end of BF. I know that it works for some people, but my own experience of exclusively expressing EBM for my son was that I was able to build up and maintain a plentiful supply by expressing 4 times a day. But for the vast majority of women that would not be the case (I would have followed advice and done it 8 times etc if I hadn't been very ill). Therefore I don't tell women who are struggling to express for their babies "It's okay, it's not recommended but I only expressed 4 times and we were fine". Because I think that would be doing other women a disservice.

What do you think? Shall I get me coat?

trying to friend = trying to persuade a friend

No, I agree Vicky, but it still will sting a bit is all I am saying, more often than not, and the whole ?it won?t hurt? slogan (as it stands) doesn?t help; it is an absolute that needs nuance applied. 2 weeks of discomfort is still not ?allowed? within this terminology ? and I agree, HV are very miss educated about this. Support and neutral advice is what is needed to ensure every woman makes her own educated decisions.

I believe I answer Sabire?s points here too.

Can I just suggest that rather than positioning ourselves as mutual antagonists, which our experience certainly does not dictate, we begin an equal dialogue?

Or at least tomorrow..night

I would actually like to take this discussion into this territory - not about the rights and wrongs of BF, as we all agree on that, but about what we think the policy should be?

Sorry haven't read thread but am butting in to catch the attention of Tiktok and Hunker or anyone else who has an opinion for my questions here

I will say that I think the suggestion of mixed feeding very early on in the establishment of breastfeeding is not helpful but I do agree that mixed feeding is better than no breastmilk at all.

My personal breastfeeding experience was that I did not want my babies to have any formula at all and I succeeded in that. Didn't exclusively feed till 6 months until I had my fourth baby and then was disappointed that I hadn't done it with the others - I just didn't have the experience with them to know that it could be done, that a baby will go back to sleeping tyhrough the night on breastmilk alone and waking is not a green light for solids.

That said, I would never persuade other women that this is a must - I would advise that it can be achieved if that is what they want to do.

Have skimmed the thread since I last posted.

On the guilt thing - do people realise that a large part of the marketing strategy for formula is the "don't talk about breastfeeding or formula milk or you'll make women feel guilty"?

Because they know that it stifles any sort of debate, which is beneficial to them, because then the only voices that are heard are the ones saying "Top up" and "Don't feel guilty for ffing" - MN's a rarity in that there are a lot of extended bfers and women involved in bf support in varying capacities on here - other parenting sites reflect UK society as a whole more (the UK society that sees 92% of babies given formula at some point).

In RL, it can be hard to talk to other women about breastfeeding (at all, let alone exclusively for six months). Really hard. Women are often really defensive about their feeding experiences - even when there's no criticism or judgement (and I hope you know me well enough to know there never is from me).

But you do realise that by going along the "don't talk about it, you'll make women feel guilty" road, you're actually playing right into the hands of the formula manufacturers and making it harder for future women to breastfeed?

I had a large and very hungry baby (10lbs+ at birth) who I fed on demand, without any trouble (HV congratulated me on being "a model on feeding a big baby", whatever that is worth ) - past the first few weeks of ?soreness? - but he was so veracious I tried mixed feeding at night time as I was exhausted but had the opposite problem of him not ever taking a false nipple.

You know, i think the problem is we (loosely ?society?) want mothers to breastfeed, but we also expect them to become economically active asap (as we (and I wanted to be) - these two things are, to a very big degree, mutually exclusive (though not completely). But I think it will help women/mothers more if the government actually defined what their policy was here; and if the choice is to BF, to support women for as long as it takes to do this. At the moment, it is nether one, nor the other.

This is not a question of mixed messages on MN, but in government policy!

I agree, MT - Government needs to recognise that if they want more women to breastfeed for any length of time, they should put in place excellent support - midwives and HVs should have compulsory breastfeeding training and top-up sessions at least once a year for latest research. That should include counselling skills, because you can be well-informed and still an arse at getting the message across to women.

Also, in my ideal world, NHS Direct staff would also be trained to know what's the normal course of bfing, what needs more help and what help is appropriate (ha!). In the real world, I'd just like them not to say "Ooh, not breastmilk, your sick baby needs diluted Ribena" fgs.

And paid maternity leave needs to be longer, better-paid and UK society needs to actually like children a bit.

MT - your suggestion of finding a way forward is exactly what hunker has been trying to do over the last few months.

It's a great idea and entirely welcomed by all those with an interest in helping women to b/feed, for however long they want to b/feed.

It is incredibly difficult to help the infant feeders of the future, when the infant feeders of the past equate progress/new information/changes in advice as some sort of criticism with how they did things. The trouble with this is that we really need the former generation of infant feeders to rally round and support the infant feeders of today and tomorrow without feeling victimised for their own methods.

Sabire - I hadnt heard of hathor before now, but am definitely a fan . I rather liked the youtube and facebook comic strips ......

Can we just nail something here?

Breastfeeding does not inevitably hurt. Women can breastfeed with no pain at all, ever. Soreness is very common, and in almost every case of soreness, a skilled breastfeeding person can help the mother improve the baby's attachment so it doesn't hurt, or at least hurts less while the inital damage heals. In some cases, soreness remains a mystery, it is true, and/or the attachment can't be improved. A few babies have a tongue tie that interferes with comfortable breastfeeding.

Anyone who says 'breastfeeding always hurts' or 'there is always a twinge' is as incorrect as someone saying 'breastfeeding only hurts if the baby's attachment is poor'. Both phrases are dogmatic and unhelpful.

Almost all the women I come across who have sore nipples and who have been told 'your latch is perfect' can be helped - in some cases, they have been told this by several healthcare professionals, and in some of these cases, it is glaringly obvious how things can be improved, but these people have just missed it.

So leave room for individual cases of mystery or persistent soreness, by all means, but don't tell women it always or nearly always hurts and just to grit their teeth. That way, too many women become more and more damaged and in greater and greater pain.

Was wondering when you were going to pick up on that one tiktok - I even name-dropped you so you could explain it further

Bloody hell, I am so f...n' predicatable.......

Ticktoc, I agree but have never coem across (personally) "'breastfeeding always hurts"', rather, 'good' breastfeeding "never hurts". Both are unhelpful, I think.

Monkey - every time someone asks 'what do I need to know about breastfeeding?' or something similar, someone posts that they should expect it to hurt, and it will last x weeks, and to not believe people who tell them it's only ever to do with attachment....truly, every time.

Just to agree with tiktok - I have never, ever had pain while bf, beyond mild soreness when ds1 was literally feeding all the time. And that's despite absolutely dreadful problems the first few weeks with ds1. So not hurting is not necessarily a sign of 'good' bf either.

But then, I (apparently) had a good position and a good latch, yet it was agonising, always. OK, it turns out appearances can be deceptive as DS had a tongue tie, but it just goes to show the issue of pain isn't black and white.

I have definitely heard, and read, the "if it hurts you're doing it wrong" line, and I personally found that very unhelpful. It led to me constantly disattaching DS in search of a better latch, resulting in even more pain, when there was actually nothing else I could do to make it any better.

Bf has never hurt me at all, beyond the initial engorgement. I am guessing we don't count the occasional nip when they are teething, or the pinching...

Twinkle, I clearly noted tongue tie as a possible reason for soreness.

I agree that saying 'if it hurts you're doing it wrong' is hopelessly unhelpful. Better is 'if it hurts there may be something we can do to put it right' and to check routinely for TT, too.

I am sure (without any medical/research basis whatsoever) that my nipples became sore due to my two having such teeny tiny mouths and not being able to open wide enough for my rather large nipples

I had plenty of help with latch, and position and baby's mouth were always fine - if not I'd adjust. So there was a reason, albeit not a clear one. [anecdotal]

I know you did Tiktok . I was just trying to be clear that there was indeed an attachment problem in my case, I suppose to point out that it may all look fine, and yet not be.

I was told that in the early days there may be pain discomfort initially as baby latched on but it should fade quickly.
And it always did, in early days took a sharp intake of breath as they latched on (not all at once has good age gaps ) and then released breath slowly, by then the pain had gone and by 6 wks I never got it again, never any sign of a sore nip, was not skin pain, hard to describe but am forever relieived I got told that.

i've been trying to keep out of this one but can't help myself any longer since the thread seems to have gone round in circles (and I have read it and cogitated on everyone's stuff...)

Regarding the OP's point, I'm still most struck by someone's - probably Tiktok's - point that most women BF in Norway compared to our situation in the UK where most women don't.

Let's assume then that even the people who choose actively to FF from the getgo will acknowledge the health benefits of BF; and those who start but can't continue BF would have liked to have continued had it been possible (which I think many/most would accept). And let's assume it is the job therefore of publicly funded healthcare people to promote feeding strategies which are the most beneficial.

If all of these things are true, why is it still so very uncomfortable for lots of people for the OP to make her point - that top ups are suggested too quickly?

For all those individuals whose BF experience, or family situation or personal wellbeing and mental health were saved, there are surely 10 more women who's BF relationship was destroyed, even if only slowly and insidiously? And even if they don't see it like that.

I'm sorry to be blunt about this but we all have to recognise our own vested interests (please point out mine that I'm not seeing here) including those who no longer BF who need to give themselves the best possible narrative. It's a bit like recommending your own nursery - whatever your misgivings, you have to say it's fine (until you can put some distance from it) because, FGS, your own decision put your child in there and you wouldn't be able to live with yourself if you believed otherwise...

...But beliefs come from lots of different places: ideologies, friends, individual experiences, well meaning advice, lack of thought. Ad infinitem.

So well meaning advice to 'top up' is fine if you accept that women are just individuals making choices and they're singly responsible for those choices and fuck em if they make the wrong one and good on em for being independent if they make the right one whatever that is.

But if you believe choice is more complicated than that and in fact its dead easy to choose to top up in a society where the difficult choice is getting the right BF support, then suggesting top ups as a first, automatic or anecdotal 'well it worked for me' outcome is indeed a problem.

I want it to be like Norway. I don't believe in absolute individual choice. I do believe in doing things that encourage social responsibility for BF.

Rant over. Wine poured.

Words 'dead easy' there somewhat tactless I see on second reading: apologies. Meant it for argumentative effect. Not of course 'dead easy' at all for women making that decision...

...But in the sense that it isn't going against the grain/flow/social niceties at all in the UK, it is more socially acceptable than being able to say help I don't know how to BF...

Excellent, really thought provoking post monkeybirds.

No time to write now but will try to copy something I wrote on another thread.

It's not hard for me for the OP to make her point. I got the impression that the people who disagreed were coming from a freedom of speech point of view.

From the point of view of MY feelings, it's not a problem at all for someone to say that top-ups are suggested too readily. Why would it be?

What I was trying to say was that it might be more sensitive for references to how much better breastfeeding is to be reiterated only wwhen strictly necessary..