I wish people wouldn't be so quick to advise others to mix feed

[NineUnlovelyTinselDecorations]

I know I am going to get jumped on for this but I am going to say it anyway.

I have noticed a few threads of late where a BF mum is struggling and asking for advice or support to carry on. Some posters have said something along the lines of "I know it's not advised, but I introduced a FF at bedtime/mixed fed and it was fine." It's not that people aren't entitled to share their own opinion and experiences, but it worries me sometimes that new mums/people struggling with BF will not read the It's Not Advised part but only the It Worked For Us part.

There's a reason that it's not advised, which is that it very often inteferes with the supply/demand of BF and one FF often turns into more and the end of BF. I know that it works for some people, but my own experience of exclusively expressing EBM for my son was that I was able to build up and maintain a plentiful supply by expressing 4 times a day. But for the vast majority of women that would not be the case (I would have followed advice and done it 8 times etc if I hadn't been very ill). Therefore I don't tell women who are struggling to express for their babies "It's okay, it's not recommended but I only expressed 4 times and we were fine". Because I think that would be doing other women a disservice.

What do you think? Shall I get me coat?

"What I'm actually suggesting is that the focus on exclusive bf is unhelpful as a way of encouraging more people to start bf. Sabire thinks it is helpful."

No - I didn't say this!

I said that the majority of bf promotion is focused on encouraging women to begin to breastfeed, and that this is right.

But if we want women to continue then they have to understand that early formula supplementation can and often does sabotage the establishment of breastfeeding.

I've also argued the case that all women need to made aware of the benefits of exclusive breastfeeding, which, far from there being a 'focus' on exclusive bf, at present isn't happening.

Ok. Well all I can say (and then I am going away from this thread) is that I am glad I heard both sides of the feeding argument. I was always determined to breastfeed and mainly had no difficulty doing it. I did have thrush for a few weeks with my third child and would cry whenever she cried for food because I knew what the pain was going to be like, but I still breastfed her because, contrary to appearances, I was a dedicated breastfeeder.

However, it was put to me that the occasional bottle of formula would help in certain situations and I have no regrets at all that I gave all my children formula at some point or another. Indeed (shock horror!) after ds1, I insisted the M/Ws formual fed my newborns during the night so I could sleep after labour. I still breastfed for the recommended time (or beyond).

I can appreciate that many of you feel bf is the best (and maybe even the only) way to feed. I am happy that you carry on telling new mothers this. All I am saying is that there is another way, and it has many advantages often overlooked.

Why is exclusive breastfeeding so much better than mixed?

The government are wont to say that even if you manage it for a couple of weeks that is better than nothing, why not also mixed, for longer?

(And may I respectfully request that you forego the 'fisk' format when answering please?)

Stylish fisking is perfectly acceptable

I think tiktok and welliemum have already answered that question though, MT.

Oh I missed your previous questions. Re ideology, the rhetoric surrounding breastfeeding is sometimes akin to ideological dogma and slogan - oft repeated but not having much substance when you actually get down to it and need practical help. I say this as a successful breast feeder too.

The idea that ?if you are doing it right, it shouldn?t hurt? for instance, which is plainly incorrect, as your breasts will be tender and sore while they, ahem, acclimatises. This bit of 'advice' is plainly misleading and very unhelpful, as it actually makes you think you aren't doing it right, even when your are!

I really don?t think you need to be arguing at the pitch you are here. Most post and advise from personal experience, and that is all relevant. We cannot, as - what - feminists? - then infantilise women by saying they will then be confused and make the wrong decision, according to our political (or ideological) standing (i.e. pro breastfeeding, as apposed to what is best for the mum and baby in the environment they find themselves in).

Three is nothing wrong with ideologies up to a point, but the personal circumstances of mother and baby need to be assessed on their own merits.

I am not poisoning the well, but making some general comments based on my own experience. Just calm down. Have a drink..'tis Friday..that reminds me?

Alrighty. Keep yer knickers on

Oh, but the 'fisk' thing is so boring - and terriobly masculine, don't you think? Do we have to start cock wrestiling on MN??

the personal circumstances, however, being tarred by ill informed HCPs, friends and family members and a general culture of breasts being slightly seedy, for groping not feeding babies, certainly not babies in public aged anything bigger than you can hold in one arm.

that is why there is rarely 'individual choice' or 'what's best for mum is best for baby,' in the matter.

this is why we so so often see mums explain their decisions away with a 'on advice of HV.' thus relinquishing responsibilty.

Oh I dont mind the overt masculinity on this site

I used to say what you said about "it shouldnt hurt" being rubbish. Tiktok corrected me on it. She was right to. Because of the lack of b/feeding in our culture, I dont think its reasonable to expect most women to self-diagnose a poor latch or whether their nipples just need "toughening up" - thus ultimately, all incidences of pain should be checked over with a HV or MW to make sure latch is correct.

With my DD, it was sore and I felt I was doing everything right. After 2 weeks it all settled down and was fine. With DS I expected that the pain was exactly the same thing. When, after 5 weeks it was still there and getting worse, I finally sought advice. It turns out I'd been suffering from thrush for most of those 5 weeks - so had DS. I should have gone for help sooner, instead of blindly battling on. I should have had more support from HCPs from the get go - knowing that I was on AB's and that, of course, it could cause thrush.

Support, and freely dispersed information - which is all folk are pushing for when they start OPs such as this, is all that is wanted.

"the rhetoric surrounding breastfeeding is sometimes akin to ideological dogma and slogan"

Again - can you relate this specifically to the points I've made about exclusive breastfeeding?

"The idea that ?if you are doing it right, it shouldn?t hurt? for instance, which is plainly incorrect, as your breasts will be tender and sore while they, ahem, acclimatises." - sorry - but you're not right here. It's true that many people experience tenderness and soreness as they get used to their baby's suckling - but many, many women also experience pain associated with cracked and squashed nipples, which is about poor positioning and latch. So it's an issue of degree - it's not simply an 'incorrect' or misleading statement. In any case - I'd prefer to err on the side of caution with this one. Better that women are told that soreness is likely to be linked to poor positioning and latch so that they seek out help which is likely to benefit them in all sorts of ways, rather than encouraging them to think that painful feeding is physiologically normal - in which case they may just give up in despair, without seeking help or advice.

"We cannot, as - what - feminists? - then infantilise women by saying they will then be confused and make the wrong decision, according to our political (or ideological) standing (i.e. pro breastfeeding, as apposed to what is best for the mum and baby in the environment they find themselves in)."

Sorry - this is very confusing. Who is talking about women making the 'wrong' decision by not breastfeeding or by mixed feeding?

The 'wrong' decision is the one that the woman has not chosen to make for herself, but one that has been imposed on her. If a woman has chosen to breastfeed and ends up having to stop because supplementation has undermined her milk supply then surely THIS is what is disempowering - particularly if she has not been made aware that by supplementing with formula early on she is jeopardising her chances of succeeding with breastfeeding?

All I'm arguing for is properly informed choice. Anything else infantilises women.

If we are going to wander into the realms of feminism........

Anything that undermines a woman's ability to b/feed, or indeed undermines her feelings regarding feeding her baby is, IMO, counterproductive to feminism.

OMG VVVExcitedAboutChristmasQV you're not a fan of Hathor the Cow Goddess are you?

I am.

But you wouldn't know to look at me!

www.thecowgoddess.com/?cat=35

Not to undermine the very serious and engaged and sensible discussion on this thread (half of which - I'll leave you to decide which half - I wholeheartedly agree with), but when you need a break, come a join us hormonal dribblers on this thread and this one!

Just checked out the cow goddess- love it, thanks for that!

OMG, Hathor ROCKS! Spread the word...

I mixed fed Ds1 from early on, I didn't think it was a bad thing and meant that DH could bond with him. I gave up BF after 5 weeks with Dd1 (she was very demanding) I BF Dd2 for 3 months before starting to mixfed for a another 3 months. I wanted to Exclusive breastfed Callum, as it is, I have had to start mixfeeding, because of his weight gain problems. He has 120ml a day of formula in a bottle, after Bfeeding. The rest of the time he has EBM in a bottle after BFeeding. I am still feeding him and hope that once he get stronger I will be able to stop the formula and the bottles.

Check out Hathor's "The Story of the Zoops" on youtube. (click on blue box on let hand said of page I posted above).

sparkly! sorry, we had a mix-up here and I've realised I didn't actually post the thing so so so sorry . do you still want it? It is the 'supplemental nursing system' by medela.

berolina Is it a tube thing?

I haven't read the whole thread, sorry. But I just wanted to say, with reference to the early posts, that I fell into the FF saved my BF camp. Meaning that without introducing formula when I did I would have stopped breastfeeding altogether within 2 weeks. With it I continued with some breastfeeding for 4.5 months. So for us, it turned out to be a good thing in a way, however hard that was for me to accept.

I have been known to advise mixed feeding on here in the past. But only, ONLY, when the mother is set on giving up breastfeeding altogether. That bottle of formula is a last resort when nothing else is working and the mother is at the end of her tether. Then, and only then, I do believe that it has a role to play.

M&J - you're trying to friend to breastfeed, from what you say, and you think to talk abut excl bf to six months will sound like nonsense to her.

Don't try to persuade her - that's what will sound like nonsense (trying to 'get' her to do something she is nervous or ambivalent about). Just explain and describe and let her know breastfeeding can be done. When she asks 'how long do you do it for?' treat her like an adult and tell her the truth - that there is very good evidence that the best health outcomes are seen in babies who are exclusively breastfed to 6 mths, and you can bf for as long as you want to after that, alongside solid foods. Part of the truth is that many women need support to do that, which is something else you will share with her, and you are happy to be on her 'team' if she wants to do it, and if she decides excl bf for a shorter time is her choice, you will support her in that, too, because any breastfeeding is good.

You can be sure she will hear the 6 mths excl thing elsewhere, anyway.

No one has said 'formula will kill your child' so you don't need to tell us 'formula will not kill your child' - you're poisoning the well again. In fact, formula has caused deaths, in very rare instances, and this is what lies behind the new guidance on the preparation of formula powder, but it is also true to say that, mostly, babies grow and thrive on formula whether it's given alongside breastmilk or on its own. And no one has denied this.