I wish people wouldn't be so quick to advise others to mix feed

[NineUnlovelyTinselDecorations]

I know I am going to get jumped on for this but I am going to say it anyway.

I have noticed a few threads of late where a BF mum is struggling and asking for advice or support to carry on. Some posters have said something along the lines of "I know it's not advised, but I introduced a FF at bedtime/mixed fed and it was fine." It's not that people aren't entitled to share their own opinion and experiences, but it worries me sometimes that new mums/people struggling with BF will not read the It's Not Advised part but only the It Worked For Us part.

There's a reason that it's not advised, which is that it very often inteferes with the supply/demand of BF and one FF often turns into more and the end of BF. I know that it works for some people, but my own experience of exclusively expressing EBM for my son was that I was able to build up and maintain a plentiful supply by expressing 4 times a day. But for the vast majority of women that would not be the case (I would have followed advice and done it 8 times etc if I hadn't been very ill). Therefore I don't tell women who are struggling to express for their babies "It's okay, it's not recommended but I only expressed 4 times and we were fine". Because I think that would be doing other women a disservice.

What do you think? Shall I get me coat?

I think everyone should post about their first hand experiences regardless of how they may differ from guidelines. otherwise i wouldnt bother coming onto mnet and would just read all the scientific websites. As a first time mum, I find the knowledge and different experiences fantastic. I read all the opinions and then make a decision based on my situation. I am sure many others do the same.

I think it's important that "I did this and it never did me/my baby any harm" is challenged when it's unlikely to be helpful to many other women though.

I think it's so complex it's hard to say what helps or doesn't help.

My short story is that I started breastfeeding and DP didn't have any bonding with DS (must documented on MN). I tried to express and got nowhere - I know now that it was a bit early to expect much, but that's hindsight. Anyway so we bought a tin of formula so that DP could give the occasional bottle and feel like he was doing something other than changing nappies.

It was reading that someone else had done this that made me feel 'okay' with it to be honest, but at the same time, paying for that tin of milk in Boots I wanted to scream out loud that I was breastfeeding.

And then there's more contradiction, I quite liked watching DP feed DS as it was a calm, peaceful picture and the first time that DP seemed to enjoy being with DS. But when MIL was here, and DP gave him formula I hated it. DS had begun to cry just before being fed and she said something like 'oh look at him with that bottle, all he wanted was his milk' - I wanted to say I give him his milk, this is just for show... I suppose I put my feelings aside for the sake of DP.

DS is only 7 weeks old but we're exclusively breastfeeding again. It happened naturally as DP enjoyed giving baths more etc so feeding is mine all mine again and I'm glad that MIL will never give him a bottle of formula.

So... sorry, got rambly, but I wish the emotional side of mixed feeding was discussed a bit more rather than just the concerns over supply. It's weird knowing your baby is having formula when your boobs are leaking all the bloody time.

must documented = much documented, and I need to sleep!

I hate the idea that "if there is ever anything wrong with a BFIng baby the first course of action is to put them onto bottles"

I have had this with

DD1 jaundiced too sleepy to feed = give her a bottle
DD1 losing a bit of birth weight = put her on a bottle
DD1 putting on weight = needs more milk give her a bottle
DD2 not sleeping through the night = give her a bottle (btw she was on 3 meals a day plus snacks plus BM and still didn't sleep through the night)

It is difficult to say what is helpful and what isnt. who are we to assume that anyones first hand experiences are either??

One of my posts on a recent thread re nipple confusion was challenged - my first hand experience tells me that DS did not suffer nipple confusion with the introduction of taking EBM from a bottle early on. Another poster told me what I was saying was wrong as nipple confusion does exist. Not for me it didnt. And I can quite honestly say that if it wasnt for DH giving a daily bottle of EBM at 10pm at night - I wouldnt have persevered with bfeeding when I hit the ridiculous wall of tiredness.
So was my post right or wrong? It may be wrong because another new mother may have tried it and her DC may have got nipple confusion. Another mother may have tried it and be in the same position i am in months on so grateful that she tried it because she is still happily bfeeding her DS.

Momma, I remember sleep deprivation, evil, evil. but I would hope that anyone who made a decision with regards to feeding their DC would thoroughly research any major decisions they made when it came to changing their method of feeding.

dal,

You were pulled up on this thread as you stated that

QUOTE imo nipple confusuion doesnt exist

When you meant, it didn't happen with my baby not that it didn't exist for other babies

i understand why was pulled up and will reword in future. the point i am making though is that my experience did go against general guideline advice. so was i wrong to post it? was it helpful or unhelpful?

hi momma - yes you are right. and i can see how generalisation could jeopardize someone elses chances of successfully establishing bfeeding. i know in future that if i post my experience, I will also point out that there are potential downsides to trying what i did.

I was thinking about how this thread on our afternoon walk, what if instead of breastfeeding and formula feeding we think of another example.

i.e. Trying to be a vegetarian (I'm a meat eater BTW)

Many people think it is the healthy option to be a vegetarian.

Hence if you really wanted to be meat free but when you had problems with your new vegetarian diet. Would it be appropriate for everyone around you to suggest a nice steak would really help you feel better ? Followed by reassurance that you can continue with your vegetarian eating another day but an odd steak never hurt anyone etc. It can be seen, how contradictory to the vegetarian lifestyle, even one piece of meat ?advice? could be. Rather than trying to help you be successful with your diet choice, well meaning people try to encourage the choice to be changed. i.e. If the veggie diet is not going well, then swap to a meat diet. Rather than help find a suitable veggie diet.

For some people the odd meat product would strength their resolve to stay meat free in the long run but many people would eat more and more meat meals and eventually give up the vegetarian option all together.

One sausage roll was the downfall for my friend

I just found it interesting to think out the issue without the emotional elements of the milk we use to feed our children.

In relation to this subject - and bear with me because this is a long one...... during an idle moment I e-mailed the C&G 'helpline' to see what advice their staff were giving out to mums considering mixed feeding. Basically I said I confused about the issue of mixed feeding, wanted to know we were being advised to bf 'exclusivly'. I was interested to see whether the information that was being handed out by their advisers was accurate.

This is the answer I got back:

" At this early stage, you may feel tempted to introduce a bottle. However, if you are serious about breastfeeding, try to avoid it, as it will have an impact on the amount of milk that you produce. Talk to your midwife or health visitor, or seek out a local breastfeeding councillor to get help and support.

Once your breast milk supply is established - around 6 - 8 weeks, - then giving the occasional bottle of either expressed breast milk or infant milk should be fine, and may help if you need to leave baby with someone for a few hours at any time. If you choose to use an infant milk, make sure you follow the preparation instructions carefully."

OK - that's obviously C&P'd from their files. However, this is the semi-literate bit their adviser (supposedly an experienced mum/midwife or hv) tacked on after I pressed her to go a bit further - that I understood about how mixed feeding could affect supply, but were there any other disadvantages to doing it:

"It is possibly not the fact that you lose any benefits by combine (sic) feeding as your health visitor is correct in that any breast milk is a benefit to your baby, but more that your body may not produce enough milk to breast feed if you are using formula, as breast feeding is very much a supply and demand technique. The more you baby feeds from the breast the more your body will produce the amount of milk required."

As I expected and as you can see - their response was focused on the issue of how supplementing affects breastmilk supply, and they completely failed to mention the health risks involved in supplementary feeding. I think this is outrageous and I feel like taking this e-mail along to my mp as proof that the formula companies are deliberately misinforming women on this issue as part of their marketing strategy.

Bringing it back to mumsnet and the advice and information women give each other on the boards on the subject of mixed feeding, I think you've got to be very careful on this subject because you can't assume that the majority of women have any awareness of the risks and disadvantages of mixed feeding, other than the possible impact on supply. And why should they be, because nobody, including the formula companies (no suprise there) wants to explain it. HV's and MW's bang on about the advantages of breastfeeding, easy peasy - but to have to tell women why they shouldn't use formula........ well that involves pointing out that there can be health risks associated with formula feeding, and lets face it - that's not something that most health professionals feel comfortable talking about with mums.

So basically - when it comes to the 'it's fine to top up with formula' posts here - you have to remember that you're doing it in a context where the majority of women probably don't understand the issues surrounding exclusive breastfeeding, and I think that should make people very cautious about what they say.....

This is such an interesting discussion, thanks everyone for posting. I still haven't made my mind up whether I stand by my original thoughts.

Camilla, I think where I disagree with you is that women discuss pain relief options for labour with their friends/family/on MN before they are in the throes of labour. They may feel differently if they strongly wanted a 'natural' birth (having weighed up advantages etc) and then asked for support, and were told at the time that an epidural takes the pain away and 'was fine for me' etc. It's not necessarily that helpful. Struggling with BF is a bit like that I feel.

NineBabiesDancing I like your analogy (especially as I am vegetarian myself) and Sabire, I think you would be justified in complaining depending on how your original questions were worded.

Ok, well I really dislike the vegetarian analogy.

I was a vegetarian in my teens. One day I decided to eat some chicken and acknowledged that I was no longer a vegetarian. If you want to be dramatic about it, which is fine by me, I failed as a vegetarian.

So by allowing my son to consume a total of about 1200ml of formula milk (I'm half guessing, many times he had only a token suck, but this is guessing at about 20 occasions where the max he took was 2fl oz) in the first 6 weeks of his life, I've failed at breastfeeding?

Vegetarians - IME, including myself - get a bit precious about it, when your best mate decides she will be a vegetarian 'but one who eats fish'.

Should breastfeeders precious about it in this way and judge those who have given their babies formula?

"but this is guessing at about 20 occasions where the max he took was 2fl oz) in the first 6 weeks of his life, I've failed at breastfeeding?"

It's not about personal 'failure' or 'success' - it's about people being equipped with the information and the knowledge to make the right choices for themselves and their babies.

If exclusive breastfeeding has important benefits for babies and if mums wish to exclusively breastfeed, then more should be done to help them. That includes giving them information about why exclusive breastfeeding is worthwhile, and giving strong support to help them do it. It doesn't include - whether it's from HP's or friends or people on this board, positively encouraging mums to supplement as a first line response to any and every sort of breastfeeding problem.

I really get cheesed off at the implication that anyone who acknowledges the importance of exclusive breastfeeding is somehow fetishing it, and passing some sort of personal moral judgement on people who supplement, or is being 'precious' about it. It's got nothing to do with that at all - not for me anyway.

ItCameUponAMidnightClara, Like the name

It is not a matter of failing or succeeding in an exclusive fashion. That was why I used the diet example. It doesn't matter if you are a meat eater or a veggie, either way you feed yourself in the most efficient way for you, your health and your lifestyle and in general other people will respect and not try to undermine that choice.

Whereas in breastfeeding, it is common for well meaning friends and family to try and push formula on a breastfeeding mother, which to my mind (unless it is the mothers choice) it is as rude as pushing meat on to a veggie.

I understand that the health benefits of breastfeeding have a dose effect. i.e. Every breastfed the baby receives gives a positive health benefit to the baby. The more feeds the higher the health benefits. So although exclusive breastfeeding gives the optimal health benefits, one feed a day is great for the baby.

For me, I would be devastated to give "just one bottle". I don't judge anyone else for doing so AT ALL, and nor do I really expect everyone to understand why this is so incredibly important for me personally. The vegetarian analogy really rang true for me, actually!

I do think that people should be aware that if something worked well for them, BUT would not be the norm for others, then sharing personal experiences would be wisely qualified with - "however, I believe this isn't the case for most women, and so for most people this wouldn't be a great thing. Could even turn out badly for you. I was lucky..." etc

I do think we should all be able to share our personal experiences, and openness is one of the wonderful things about MN. But as hunker says, best to qualify what we say if it's unlikely that someone else will be able to experience the same outcome. It's important not to imply that one's personal experiences would be likely to work for others, if there is evidence that the opposite is true.

(I'm assuming here that "just one bottle" proves detrimental to most or many full term bf relationships - I may be very wrong here!)

I agree with FioFio. DS had a tongue tie which wasn't spotted until about Day 6 or 7 by the midwife and I found BF so difficult, especially as I had an emergency C-seciton.

In hospital after DS had been trying to latch and feed for about 18 hours but didn't seem to be getting any more settled I reluctantly agreed to giving him some formula. I knew from the NCT BF class I had been to that this was WRONG and BAD but I didn't know what else to do, and tbh in the same situation again, darned if I would know what to do differently.

Again when we came home DS fed for hours but was not satisfied, MW spotted his tongue tie and was really good about getting me to try different holds,then I got mastitis and tried expressing but it was too early then DH gave him a FF and again I got mixed up from the classes and thought well I have given in, I'm a crap Mum and I am going to give up BF because I have already given him F and buggered it all up and its too late to go back.

I love Mumsnet because its full of stories of people who tried and succeeded to BF and those who mixed fed and those who like me tried but didn't manage for long.

I do agree strongly that BF is the best way to feed your baby and its difficult for people to receive mixed messages, but as carrot says provided people say this is my experience and we have the expert advice of people like hunker & tiktok then I think we should be ok.