I wish people wouldn't be so quick to advise others to mix feed

[NineUnlovelyTinselDecorations]

I know I am going to get jumped on for this but I am going to say it anyway.

I have noticed a few threads of late where a BF mum is struggling and asking for advice or support to carry on. Some posters have said something along the lines of "I know it's not advised, but I introduced a FF at bedtime/mixed fed and it was fine." It's not that people aren't entitled to share their own opinion and experiences, but it worries me sometimes that new mums/people struggling with BF will not read the It's Not Advised part but only the It Worked For Us part.

There's a reason that it's not advised, which is that it very often inteferes with the supply/demand of BF and one FF often turns into more and the end of BF. I know that it works for some people, but my own experience of exclusively expressing EBM for my son was that I was able to build up and maintain a plentiful supply by expressing 4 times a day. But for the vast majority of women that would not be the case (I would have followed advice and done it 8 times etc if I hadn't been very ill). Therefore I don't tell women who are struggling to express for their babies "It's okay, it's not recommended but I only expressed 4 times and we were fine". Because I think that would be doing other women a disservice.

What do you think? Shall I get me coat?

margo, who is saying that there is no point in doing any breastfeeding if you can't do it exclusively? I assume that's the point you are making with your walking and marathon analogy.....if people say this, then it just shows how little they know about bf.

Excl bf is not the 'ideal' or the 'great' or the 'zenith'. It is the physiological norm for our species - that's all. It's as normal as walking without crutches or breathing without an oxygen mask or chewing without false teeth

Women who want to do it should be enabled to do it. Your the one who's going on and on about it being some great physical achievement out of reach of most ordinary mortals. In fact, culturally and socially, it is out of reach - but that's not the fault of the ordinary mortals.

Downthread is the explanation of why mixed feeding can do harm - I don't care for the phrase 'harm' and I would prefer 'has risks', but essentially the meaning is the same.

MAJ, would it help you to know that I'd had a properly miserable time bfing for the first 5 weeks with DS1 and dreamt of giving DS2 formula when I had mastitis several times in the first four weeks with him?

So in part, you're right - the positive outweighed the negative for me, eventually, with bfing - and I think had it taken any longer with DS1, or had I had the experience I'd had with DS2 (low blood sugars, etc in hospital, plus mastitis) with DS1, I would probably have ffed him.

In fact, I have said recently that some formula can save bfing for some women - I've seen it happen. For me, it would've been the end of bf - in fact, given the way I felt at the time, I'd probably have driven into a brick wall at speed if I "couldn't even bf" because I thought I was useless at everything else too.

Not sure that I'm going "on and on". Just putting a counter opinion. And if I feel strongly about this it's because I just don't feel the current messages work and that's bad for everyone. But then, what do I know about it?

MAJ, I do agree, actually, that the current messages aren't working for many women - largely because they're not backed up with informed support from every HCP who comes into contact with a new mum, but partly because of their tone.

AWayinamunker, yes I've seen you say that about mixed feeding before. And I'm sure you're right about the point (I've seen you make before) that if the ff message is given out by an HV in a casual way and not backed up with warnings about how supply could be a problem if you go this route, then it won't help bf.

I got the "top up" message from HVs in exactly this casual way and I refused to do it (because I was determined to bf though it meant I sat on the sofa and sobbed for weeks because I was failing). I only did it when the bf consultant I saw talked me through the options and helped me get to a point where I could use ff to support bf until it was all working properly. Basically I agree that casual and uninformed advice about ff is really, really unhelpful.

I'm sure the general point about bf babies gaining weight more slowly is also true and sometimes this makes the health professionals recommend ff when they don't need to.

So basically I agree with you too

crossed posts with Away. Sorry, really difficult to follow now.

M&J - maybe not 'going on and on' But you certainly talk of it (excl bf) as being an unattainable target and a zenith and being unrealistic

I agree about the message not being right.

I'd add that breastfeeding support people know full well about struggle and difficulty and tears and sadness - that's often what inspires them to consider training. The ones who have the idea that it's a breeze, anyone can do it, what's the fuss about, it's easy-peasy, should not even consider training, as they will be uselessly judgemental

Margo I agree with a lot of what you say (but that's probably obvious from my previous post).

Tiktok I do think the word "harm" is very different from "risk" when you're talking about the effect that a mother's feeding method has on her baby. If I had read about formula "harming" my baby when I first gave it to her, it wouldn't have stopped me from giving it to her (because in the circumstances, and at 3 in the morning on a weekend I couldn't do anything else), but it sure as hell would have made me feel a whole lot worse - and I was already feeling pretty desperate about it.

Yep, agree about the use of 'harm' for precisely that reason.

OH crikey I had a shit time b/feeding DS. Had thrush for 8+ weeks. Was utterly miserable, and agonising. I put up with it far longer than I should have simply becuase of lack of support.

I'd also second the view that BF 'campaigners' are not necessarily the ones who had the easiest time. Not a campaigner in the strict sense of the word but certainly feel very strongly about it and happy to use that to share, encourage, cajole to keep women BFing.

And it's precisely BECAUSE I had a terrible time establishing feeding with all 3 babies that I feel like this. The gruelling times have got less with each child but I can't tell you the number of nights with agonising bleeding nipples, blocked ducts, screaming baby and screaming mother. It went on for weeks with each - down to about 8ish weeks for the current one...

I said in another post, I think a hair's breadth separates those who continue to exclusively feed and those who mix feed or indeed give up when they've had times like this.

I have morphed from someone who just thought they would BF, into a BF campaigner, because I was not able to BF at all (well, I don't think 6 feeds in 3.5 months really counts does it) I had such poor, poor 'help' and advice from the HCPs that it made me angry enough to want to do something. The original reason I started this thread though is because of the help and advice from ordinary women can also undermine BF too in my opinion (though they are not in a position of so-called knowledge and responsibility like the HCPs and whilst I sometimes feel frustrated, it is with our warped attitude to BF as a society and not ever at individuals).

Actually I am quite surprised to read how many people think that women in general feel that if they give any formula it has negated the benefits of BF and so give up. In my (limited) experience, BF women who give formula occasionally/regularly might know about the supply risks but I've not spoken to anyone who is worried about the health risks of formula.

Oh yes Fio it was definitely the initial advice that was the problem. After only 4 days I had access to fantastic advice and help but by then the damage was already done, sadly.

I don't feel so concerned about people advising introducing a bottle to someone who is successfully feeding and has been doing it for a couple of months. It's the mums whose babies are a couple of weeks old and who are looking for BF support who get told 'introduce a bottle' or worse, 'don't feel bad that you can't do it, formula won't hurt the LO' etc etc that saddens me so much.

And if a bottle or two of formula keeps the family happy and the mum has made an informed decision (like you did presumably) then great, but the casual way that people advise mixed feeding doesn't really support that IMO.

See I do feel as though people who are bf campaigners often had a really good experience with bfing and didn't mix feed and didn't have to.

What do you base that belief on? Most people I know who are strong bf advocates have got to where they are through having negative personal experiences of breastfeeding - the interest and the commitment grow from finding solutions to their problems. I mixed fed my first for six weeks (from 2 to 8 weeks) because of my breastfeeding struggles.

"I'm sure that doesn't apply to all but it does mean that I think what those of us who really struggled with it and who mix fed as a way to get any bfing done at all are not really listened to or maybe not even really believed."

No - you're wrong - people do listen and they do believe, because we know what it's like for ourselves.

It's as if, if I had tried harder or wanted it more or been more committed or lived in a more bf-friendly society, I could have exclusively bf.

I can't comment on your case because I don't know the details, but I do know that if women had more confidence that managing without formula is possible for the vast majority of mums, and if they had more expert postnatal care in the early weeks then far, far fewer women would end up in a situation where they're forced to use formula because bf has gone seriously wrong.

"In those circs, what "harm" does formula feeding alongside bf do? It's not as harmful as letting your baby get severely dehydrated which is what happened to mine."

If you simply accept that it doesn't really matter if women have to supplement then you might as well give up trying to stop problems happening in the first place. Until we acknowledge the importance of exclusive bf to women and babies and stop seeing formula as a 'cure all' for breastfeeding problems then there won't be the political will to do something about the dire state of breastfeeding support and education in the UK.

but I'm telling you from my experience, promoting exclusive bfing as the zenith of anyone's experience isn't helping.

Exclusive breastfeeding isn't a 'zenith' or an unattainable ideal - it's the biological norm and what the vast majority of us are capable of if we're given the right education and support.

"You can tell me it's the ideal all you like but if I have to introduce formula on day 10 because my daughter has just been readmitted to hospital (which happened to a friend) then that is entirely irrelevant to my life and experience."

I know women who've found themselves in this situation - it's not uncommon. Generally situations like this are the result of very, very poor postnatal care and a dire lack of expertise in midwives in identifying and tackling early breastfeeding problems. Of course it would be completely inappropriate to be having the sort of discussion you mention with the mother of a poorly child who clearly needed supplementation either with formula or with donated breastmilk.

However - it IS important that the value of exclusive breastfeeding is acknowledged by every one involved in the promotion of breastfeeding and that mums be supported to achieve it, if that's what they wish to do.

"As I keep saying, I think it's much more about promoting bf as a choice and a positive choice and as great in so many ways. And then offering the relevant support. Not telling people that if you can't run a marathon there's no point going for a walk because you'll never be fit."

Nobody on this thread is arguing for this. I personally would like breastfeeding to be promoted as the normal way to feed a baby and for exclusive breastfeeding to be promoted as a) possible for the vast majority of normal mums given the right support and b) worthwhile.

Sorry only just seen this. So I have compromised the health of my children by occasionally giving them formula? Bugger me.

I was bottle fed as were many (most? I don't know) of my compatriots in the 1960s. I feel fine and my children are usually beacons of good health. Please tell me what damage I have done them.

Well, yes, of course, dumbledorewithboughs, your personal experience trumps all the research, including a large well designed study of over 15000 babies.

No-one is saying that you harmed your children or were yourself harmed. Please read this thread more carefully.

The evidence is strong that for some babies, their health is compromised by mix feeding. No-one knows how you tell which babies this applies to.

Exclusive bf is the safest bet. No more, no less. It's not a guarantee or an obligation.

I base it on my experience and on the tone on this thread and elsewhere. Suggest that there's something not quite right with the current emphasis and you are hit with some very defensive posts. I'm not attacking you - just saying these are my opinions and they are just as valid as opinions on how to promote bf as yours. Like the "on and on" comment - ok tiktok I know that was just throwaway and I really don't mind but if a different view is treated like that then yes, it makes me think this whole debate could do with a little more openness to another view.

FWIW, and I realise I'm repeating myself now, I completely disagree with this: "If you simply accept that it doesn't really matter if women have to supplement then you might as well give up trying to stop problems happening in the first place. Until we acknowledge the importance of exclusive bf to women and babies and stop seeing formula as a 'cure all' for breastfeeding problems then there won't be the political will to do something about the dire state of breastfeeding support and education in the UK."

I think that really is a counsel of perfection and I think it's much better to start at grass roots and at grass roots people are finding the whole concept of bf really awful. I think we need to encourage people even to start - a lot of people I know gave up in hospital - even on day one - because it "wasn't working" not realising that it's often not somethign that just "works" or feels right immediately. They obviously didn't know how tough it can be and how much time it takes. They are a million miles away from exclusively bf. They are not even bf.

I am currently trying to persuade a friend to bf when her daughter is born next year. She is hesitant about bf in front of people, doesn't like the thought of it, feels embarrassed about it. If I mentioned exclusive bf for six months it would be a nonsense to her.

As for my experience, I don't really know why I couldn't bf at first. My dd was premature and jaundiced and although I had loads of supply, I think she was too weak. I perhaps could have expressed but I never really got enough from expressing. Like 2oz in an hour. Not enough anyway. So she had a couple of oz of formula to give her the energy to tackle bf and we went on like that from about day 10 to about five weeks when I managed to go exclusive for about three months but then reintroduced formula little by little as I went back to work at six months and needed to phase out bfs on a week by week basis. I look back on this time and I think God, I did bloody brilliantly

And I think dumbledore's point is valid actually. I know bf really matters to all of us but let's keep it in perspective. You can actually raise a ff child to be perfectly healthy and probably a lot of us were just such children. Surely we can find a better way to discuss these issues without the sarky tone and the to people's ordinary real life experience.