I wish people wouldn't be so quick to advise others to mix feed

[NineUnlovelyTinselDecorations]

I know I am going to get jumped on for this but I am going to say it anyway.

I have noticed a few threads of late where a BF mum is struggling and asking for advice or support to carry on. Some posters have said something along the lines of "I know it's not advised, but I introduced a FF at bedtime/mixed fed and it was fine." It's not that people aren't entitled to share their own opinion and experiences, but it worries me sometimes that new mums/people struggling with BF will not read the It's Not Advised part but only the It Worked For Us part.

There's a reason that it's not advised, which is that it very often inteferes with the supply/demand of BF and one FF often turns into more and the end of BF. I know that it works for some people, but my own experience of exclusively expressing EBM for my son was that I was able to build up and maintain a plentiful supply by expressing 4 times a day. But for the vast majority of women that would not be the case (I would have followed advice and done it 8 times etc if I hadn't been very ill). Therefore I don't tell women who are struggling to express for their babies "It's okay, it's not recommended but I only expressed 4 times and we were fine". Because I think that would be doing other women a disservice.

What do you think? Shall I get me coat?

I never had a problem breastfeeding and it was still bloody exhausing, so can't imagine what it must be like if you are struggling. In my humble opinion, the emotional wellbeing of the mum is more important than the exclusive breastfeeding ideal. Many women mix feed and if it gives some relief to an exhausted mum then that is all that matters. Human beings should always come before ideologies.

And don't forget, some women really can't breast feed, and where they live ina culture where formula isn;t reasily available their children would die.

"I think it's much better to start at grass roots and at grass roots people are finding the whole concept of bf really awful."

And exactly how would downplaying the benefits of exclusive breastfeeding or the problems of early supplementation help those women? If you tell women that they can mixed feed from the outset and it won't cause them any problems or have any disadvantages for their baby you're a) lying to them and b) setting them up to fail with breastfeeding.

You'd be helping to fuel the current backlash against breastfeeding - too many women encouraged to breastfeed but set up to fail. It contributes to a climate of distrust of breastfeeding and cynicism about breastfeeding advocacy.

People find the concept of breastfeeding awful for a whole host of reasons - but mainly because it's something they're culturally unfamiliar with. For those women bottlefeeding is the normal, healthy way to feed a baby. That's what we need to tackle.

"I think we need to encourage people even to start"

Yes - and actually that's what the bulk of breastfeeding promotion is about. I'm not arguing that they should scale this down.

However, the reality of breastfeeding for the majority of UK mums is like this: start breastfeeding, begin supplementing - either because you're having breastfeeding problems or because you don't know any reason not to supplement - then give up breastfeeding two weeks later because your baby has nipple confusion and your supply is compromised.

Women need to understand that using formula early has a stong likelyhood of sabotaging breastfeeding. It's as simple as that.

My personal feeling is that at a population level breastfeeding and formula feeding can't co-exist happily side by side , despite the fact that some women have no problems mixed feeding. Where you have affordable and powerfully marketed formula you'll have women failing with breastfeeding because formula use undermines the basic mechanisms of breastfeeding.

MAJ, that is exactly my point. You can ff a child and your child will be perfectly healthy.

But you can't argue, as dumbledore is, that because your child is healthy, the research is not valid. It's a very very bad argument. Not just in an academic sense, but because other women are reading these threads and making decisions about their own babies based on what they read. By implying that you own experience counts more than the experienc of 15000 other mothers, you risk giving bad advice.

Personal experience is very very important, and it's one of the great strengths of mumsnet that you can be helped by other people's stories and advice.

But personal experience is important in a different way from research-based evidence and to me, the crucial point is to use both when making a decision, but never confuse them.

Because if you tell women that the only bf that really counts is exclusively bf for six months, the ones who are hesitating about even trying won't bother. Hope that sets it out clearly enough,.

And your "It's as simple as that" - err, no it's not. As I've said in every post on this subject, it's complex. Many women, many solutions. Plenty of women on here have said that ff helped them. Others have said it's hindered them. Different solutions for different problems.

"You can actually raise a ff child to be perfectly healthy"

This is the sort of response that makes me feel very frustrated.

With respect, has anyone suggested that giving your baby formula will inevitably result in them being ill or make them 'unhealthy'?

I've trawled back through the thread and you know - nobody has either said or implied this.

It's an argument tactic known as 'poisoning the well' - attribute opinions to someone that they don't hold and then attack them for it. It's often used against breastfeeding advocates. I wish people wouldn't do it because it muddies the water and unnecessarily polarises opinion on the subject.

I think personal experience is important, absolutely.

But the facts remain that ff can increase risks of various things that tiktok has already mentioned. It's daft to pretend otherwise, and not really helping anyone.

Oh God! No I was saying, let's keep a sense of perspective. Formula won't kill your child. That's all I was saying.

And can you please bear in mind I support bf and would like to see more of it. Bloody hell. this is exactly the sort of debate that puts people off.

can i ask a really silly question?

when we say mixed feeding - are we alluding to breastfeeding then supplementing with formula only? or does breastfeeding and bottle feeding with ebm also fall under the mantle of mixed?

just unsure whether the mixed refers to breast/bottle and/or breast/formula?

Yes, MAJ, if you read my first post on this thread, you'll see me describing why exclusive bf to 6 months isn't an all-or-nothing goal.

Sabire's point about poisoning the well is unfortunately very true.

Nobody on this thread has said there's only one right way to do things.

I think we're all talking about bf plus formula.

well it may be but poisoning the well is not what I'm doing.

I am asking for a different approach to encouraging bf. Quite how that gets "polarising opinion" I don't know. What I'm actually suggesting is that the focus on exclusive bf is unhelpful as a way of encouraging more people to start bf. Sabire thinks it is helpful. No wells being poisoned here. I just disagree.

Sorry welliemum, I freely confess, I cant be bothered to rad the thread more fully. Some people speak as experts. I am sure they are experts. It doesn't make me wrong though.

I am another passionate bf advocate whose interest grew from the most almighty struggle to make bf work for ds1 and me. First baby, birth with all the interventions going bar forceps and CS, jaundiced and sleepy, emotional blackmail advice in hospital to top up, breast refusal. Cue weeks of trying to get a screaming ds1 to take breast before every feed, occasionally with success, usually not; looooong expressing sessions with pitiful yield; and many many tears over having to give formula. We kept and kept trying and at 3.5 weeks he just stopped refusing and at 4 weeks we had reached exclusive bf. We never looked back and I am now tandem feeding him at 2.7 and 12-week-old ds2. Those first weeks were grim, grim weeks, they really were. I was shellshocked - had never imagined bf could be like this - and devastated at the thought of not making it.

Where is the place of mixed feeding in all this? Well, first it buggered up my bf, then it saved it - in that I didn't throw in the towel, but kept topping up with the goal of exclusive bf in mind. But it wouldn't have had to save it if it hadn't buggered it up. I think the crux of the issue is that we do not have a 'culture' conducive to bf, in which women are knowledgeable about bf, prepared for early problems and supported to overcome them. Introducing ff without this knowledge is likely to be the beginning of a slippery slope. Possibly mixed feeding is more likely to work if a woman is thoroughly aware of the physiology and mechanisms of successful bf and supported and motivated to keep going - but in this case she is a lot less likely to want to mixed feed or for the idea to occur to her.

During the weeks of struggling I had conversations with my pro-bf MW and with bfcs. We discussed what would happen if I never made it to excl bf. The message I got was that mixed feeding certainly does reduce the benefits and have risks, but that some bf was definitely better than none. I was also advised on how to mixed-feed in a way that minimised the interference from formula. So nobody was rubbishing my efforts or saying I might as well not bother with bf; but they were telling it like it is. I remember being very, very upset by a post of tiktok's stating 'ff has risks'. But those are simply the facts; should they have been kept away from me? I think along with that message has to come clear advice that mixed feeding is likely in the mid- to long term to lead to the end of bf. And the all-important support.

Women are being set up to fail at bf. Because it is easier and cheaper to put up posters than provide serious support in the infrastructure. And because of various techniques of the formula manufacturers. When ds2 was three weeks old he was admitted to the neonatal ward for 3 days with a suspected neonatal infection. I was in with him, of course, and on the first morning a nurse brought me breakfast which included something called 'bf juice' manufactured by Nestle. A little bottle of fruit juice with a sachet of powder with it. The nurse proceeded to explain how it was really important to drink the juice because of all the vitamins in the powder which were important for bf. I responded that IMO this was actually a cynical technique to contribute to the 'atmosphere' around bf of it being something dreadfully difficult and needing lots of special nutrition and paraphernalia, and to present the manufacturer as bf-friendly. She looked thoughtful and said 'oh yes, actually you're right really'. The insidiousness of such techniques horrify and anger me.

I'll stop now as ds1's bedtime and one-handed typing due to bf have slowed the progress of this message and the thread is sure to have left me far behind.

I never said research was not valid. I breastfed 4 children myself thank you. I do not need lecturing to. All I am saying is that, surprise surprise millions of people have been formula fed and most of us survived and thrived on the formula milk.

I do not think the health of the baby is going to be helped if the mother struggles desperately to bf and ends up a nervous wreck because she is finding it hard, or because people are telling her she is a failure for not breastfeeding more. There is an issue of mental health as well as physical health.

I'm sure you know more than anyone how healthy you and your children are DG. I dont think that's in dispute.

I dont think it is particularly pertinent either though, in the scheme of things.

at bf juice. ffs.

I am also very conscious that there are new mothers out there who could be reading this and could be swayed by what is being said. That is why I am saying it. Because new mums need to hear both sides of the argument.

Of course it is VVVQV. My experience is perfectly valid and absolutely pertinent to this argument.

Two things - nobody is telling anyone that 'the only breastfeeding that counts is exclusively breastfeeding for six months'.

Once again - poisoning the well.

I believe that breastfeeding is intrinsically valuable to women and babies, no matter how long they do it for or how exclusively. Nobody on this thread, me included has suggested that mixed feeding or short term breastfeeding isn't worth doing.

Monkeytrousers: "Human beings should always come before ideologies"

In what sense is promoting exclusive breastfeeding about 'ideologies'?

"And don't forget, some women really can't breast feed, and where they live ina culture where formula isn;t reasily available their children would die."

Yes - but in societies where formula isn't readily available because it's not affordable, very, very few babies do die from lack of breastfeeding - breastfeeding failure is extremely rare except in countries where formula use in endemic.

In any case nobody is arguing that formula is NEVER necessary or helpful - once again, poisoning the well.

There you go you see, no-one has ever said that women who dont b/feed are failures.

It's an imagined sleight, and serves no purpose whatsoever.

And that is exactly what is wrong with "your side" of the argument.

Is it imagined though? FF mothers do often say they have been made to feel a failure. I have read that comment many times here on MN and I have spoken to "RL" women who have said the same. Maybe the sense of failure came from within, who knows? But I think it is reasonable to assume some women were made to feel that way by other people telling them bf is the only way to go.

Sorry, what is wrong with my side of the argument? I am not sure what you mean by that.

It largely does come from within, yes. In the same way a parent feels guilt over many of the things they do.

The issue I have with your interpretation of "your side", is putting forward comments basically along the lines of "b/feeders make non-b/feeders feel like failures", and that because you havent experienced something, it is somehow less valid.

FWIW, when I thought I wasn't going to make it with ds1, I was surrounded by people telling me I was anything but a failure, and still felt like one. I believe if we hadn't made it it would have been PND for me. Seriously.