hhhm, so Vicki Scott thinks we need to pump and dump while having a drink?

[5goldrings4MONKEYBIRDs]

see Xmas tips link Yeah, if you're boozing for england but oculd it perhaps be a slight advert for Avent products here rather than fully correct BF advice? i think one or two drinks is usually OK, especially if you have them straight after feeding as we've said many times on this list...

I know MN has gotta have an income from somewhere but adverts disguised as advice aren't helping anyone. or is it just me?

9babiesdancing, saying you have done a Unicef Course and a course from the LCGB does not in my mind means that she has done the most extensive courses either of those organisations provide. I am sure they offer shorter courses for beginners before they offer longer courses. and they also offer courses for HCP's who have never bf. (not that i think that is the be all and end all of a knowledgeable bf person. It is just that they offer a range of different courses.)

I don't even think i have read whether or not she bf her dd or if she did so for 6 months or longer. I don't think it is my place to ask her this information. I think it is her place to provide it as the 6 mo. bf thing is a minimum benchmark by the 4 voluntary organisations when anyone undergoes their training to become a support mum or a bfc. Someone 'in the know' and who would like to build her confidence in the sceptical MNer mind, may be incisive enough to offer this information as they would know how vital this information is and what it signifies.

that this information was not proferred when asked what her qualifications are, is a little thing that makes me go

kiski, you are right that the vol orgs ask for a minimum bf experience, but while it is essential to have this to be a breastfeeding counsellor (or equivalent) because of the mother-to-mother way we work, and because it is a way of showing we value the 'embodied' experience of breastfeeding, and because it does give you an extra 'dimension' when supporting someone, I (personally) don't think it is necessary to have breastfed in order to help and support someone with their breastfeeding....there are many fantastic breastfeeding support people who have not even been pregnant, and some of them are even men There are lots of ways to support bf, and bf mothers, and the breastfeeding counsellor way is only one.

So it doesn't bother me whether she has bf or not. In fact, a bf experience that is without training can be a bit dodgy....I don't mean in informal situations, of course, but rather professional situations. I know in my own life a health visitor who breastfed and who really thinks she knows it all, and everything comes back to her own (pretty dismal and short) experience, and she uses this as a basis for advising mothers

i understand and agree with what you said, Tiktok. What I was trying to get at though was that I asked her qualifications and in my mind, bfing your own child for 1 day or 1 yr is a qualification for this job as 'baby feeding' advisor(?).

So, if for the purposes of an example, she had said, I intended to bf my child to 6 month (or whatever) but it didn't work out. However with knowledge I know have from course X I have a better idea of why it didn't work out for us.

I was also hoping that she would have told me the actual names of the courses she found useful with a sentence maybe to describe it or them so that we could get a snapshot of her knowledge. (or google it to find out more )

then Vicki Scott said "I would sit through pretty much every feed with a new mum for the first 2-6 weeks and be keen to find the answers to all her questions" sounds a bit like hyperbole for me. And coupled with other enthusiastic sounding but vague information, well it just felt like someone was pssing up my back a bit. Or I possibly have no clue what a Maternity Nurse does but I think I know what she should* do.

TikTok, Prompted by your post, I relooked at the webpage which I thought showed the LCGB Courses and (as I expected) you are right.

With a second look, I am unsure who runs these courses but as these courses are advertised on the LCGB website I assumed (never a good thing to do) that they ran them.

Which ironically is the same objection raised about innaccurate facts on the 'Philip Avent' wenpages. i.e. Readers will have assume all the facts are right just because it is a page on Mumsnet website.

I should add at the bottom of posts like this that I am a bit over persistent sometimes. But well, when someone calls herself and expert, well, she has set a high bar for herself and it is a shame to not offer them the opportunity to rise to the challenge.

innaccurate facts on the 'Philip Avent' wenpages

should read

inaccurate facts on the 'Philip Avent' webpages

kiskidee, Maybe Vicky will see your request for specific course details and respond ?

Nine, those courses are run by people who set themselves up as independent trainers, from the looks of it. They may be one or two people, and they may be lactation consultants themselves, but it's not the LCGB who is running them. I agree it is misleading, and Vicki Scott could be forgiven for saying she was on an LCGB course, I suppose.

Hi Guys,
Wow, looks like it might be a good idea to answer your questions! Poppy about to wake up so not a good time, but I'll be back later. I'm sorry you've been disappointed with my involvement here-hope we can sort it out later. best wishes Vicki

Vicki, it's nothing personal.

It's more about you being launched onto MN as "the expert" without any clarification of everything behind that, iyswim.

oh yes, definitely nothing personal. in fact i'd say that Philips Avent have stuffed up more than you have.

Yet it does feel as though my integrity is in question, so it's difficult not to take it personally and I do need to respond to that. BTW of course it's essential that any new mum is sure of the quality of the advice she's taking, before she acts on it, so the quest for information is completely understandable.

Well tell us the facts (particularly those concerning your relationship with Avent) and then we'll all be much happier.

And I for one wou;ld love to hear more about what a 'wellbeing advisor' actually does and what qualifications such a post requires.

I'm going to be cheeky and ask three questions

1. I would love to know the details of the breastfeeding courses you have attended ?

1. I know you are an independant advisor for Philip Avent, do they pay a fee for this service ?

1. Do you still stand by the original 'pump and dump after alcohol' advice, in light of all the studies etc which have come to light ?

QUOTE of course it's essential that any new mum is sure of the quality of the advice she's taking, before she acts on it, so the quest for information is completely understandable.
Thanks for being understanding.

Vickiscott, I was just so disheartened to see you write that breastmilk is the 'main' form of nourishment for babies for 6 months, whenn really isn't is supposed to be the ONLY form of nourishment for 6 months? There is a massive difference between 'only' and 'mainly' because then that would validate giving solids or formula feeds before 6 months as being the optimal way of feeding babies of that age group.

The implications of 'main' form of nourishment is that it undermines WHO guideliness which campaign for exclusive breastfeeding for 6 months. The figures for exclusively breastfed 4 and 5 month olds are so low in this country, and women who choose to follow WHO guidelines in this respect are very often pressurised by peers, family and health professionals to do differently. We need figures like yourself who are given the status of 'wellbeing advisor' to reinforce, rather than undermine, WHO guidelines.

also vicki, i'd like to know if you've been in contact with Philips before answering this thread and if they've advised you as to how to handle the situation they've landed you in.

I've come to this thread really late but I do have a thought (sorry if it's been mentioned already).

Do we think that when Vicki was talking about pumping there is a possibility she meant for the sake of comfort (if you're one of those very milky women who gets engorged if you even so much as think about missing a feed) rather than to get rid of the "contaminated" milk?

I imagine if you were really drunk (although it may still be safe) you might not want to feed your baby, but might feel rather "full" and need to express a little to relieve the fullness?

Not me, I never got engorged or leaked or anything like that, but I hear it does happen. ( at milk goddesses! )

Or am I just being hopelessly naive and really VS just wanted to sell Avent stuff to us all?

Poppy would not go to bed tonight!
Like all of you, I?ve learned a lot from Mumsnet- I dipped into the site when I was expecting Poppy as it was the only place I could get answers to my more obscure questions!

As Baby Feeding and Wellbeing Advisor(note:not ?expert?-initially I was referred to as Feeding Expert but I asked for that to be changed to reflect my role as general advisor on many topics) to Philips Avent,I try to base my advice/opinions on a combination of factors-being a mum myself, a midwife, study and keeping as up to date as possible, and importantly from years of working one to one with hundreds of mums.

The reason I cite my time Maternity Nursing as my most valuable learning period (and it?s not hyperbole) is because no amount of letters after my name would be able to compete with the hours spent with nursing mums, day and night. I was always eager to do a good job, and would always do my best to provide good information. I feel I did learn a huge amount-many of the realities of breastfeeding and looking after a baby 24/7 that you just don?t get as a 9-5 HCP.

Hunker asked the question 2 weeks ago about whether I had breastfed my own baby. My answer was that I did, for a year(fully breastfed/some bottles of EBM for 23 weeks), and missed it very much when I stopped. I?m hoping to be lucky enough to have a second baby at some point, and hoping to be able to enjoy breastfeeding again. I don?t mention my own experience unless asked as I don?t feel it?s completely relevant, as Tiktok said. I feel that some mums can be intimidated by someone?s successful breastfeeding experience, when I?m advising a mum it?s about her, not me.

Being a feeding advisor is not just about quoting the latest research-just because blood levels of alcohol need to reach 300mg/100ml before sedative effects are seen in baby- does that mean it?s ok to do it? I?ve known milk to reek of alcohol at much lower levels and wouldn?t want it anywhere near my baby.
The majority of mums I?ve worked with , and myself, wouldn?t want their baby to take ANY alcohol in their breastmilk, so my tip was meant to say that there is a way to enjoy yourself, overindulge and ensure your baby isn?t affected, if that?s what you want.
If a mum drinks 8 units (approx-4 large glasses of wine) and waits 8 hours for blood levels to fall, is she not at risk of mastitis if baby would normally have fed twice in that time? Just a thought.

The reason I recommend 24 hrs for storage of breastmilk is because I?ve always found it a workable amount of time. Most mums would glaze over by the time I got halfway through the ?full? advice.
24 hours gets mums off to a good start, reduces the risk of mistakes being made and she will question that length of time and look further into it when she?s ready. I had the experience of milk ?going off? after 2 days when stored correctly-so I?d rather be on the safe side.

I am independent from Philips Avent in as much as the advice and information I give is my own, and not altered to suit the company-however as I?ve said before I?ve always used and loved the products, and believe that they can support many mums to fully breastfeed for longer(that is,those mums who don?t want to ?exclusively? BF ie never give even a bottle of EBM).

I?m not claiming to have all the answers, but to give good, rounded advice on many topics concerning feeding and looking after baby, it?s advice and my opinion, that?s all.

I?ll log on again early next week to pick up any further questions concerning this-then I?m off to the family for Christmas!
All the best Vicki

So you are paid by Avent?
Is it a fulltime position?

i still don't understand how you can be a wellbeing advisor but be in the employment of a company.

And i don't understand why having you here as that role means that your advice or more adequate than that we can get by posting on chat/breastfeeding or where ever on here

surely all MNetters can be wellbeing advisors if that is the case?

I suppose we are...
Except moondog who calls herself a shitbeing advisor

We are interested to know, because of the little bar along the top of our Talk Pages next to a picture of you, saying that you are a "baby feeding and wellbeing advisor". I think it is fair to ask what qualifications have elevated you to the status of a "baby feeding advisor", because, as you are no doubt are aware, as a baby feeding advisor, infant feeding is an incredibly important issue that is of great concern to all parents.

Having seen one or two missives from you already that arent, IMO, and in my limited experience, quite right.

As a parent on this website, when advising people, my main aim when responding to requests for advice or info, is to give the most impartial, up to date, relevant advice and guidelines available. A key part of that is a willingness to accept new information, and to learn new things.

As I said before, you seem like a lovely person. It would be great if you can bring/add something to MN. But there are lots of lovely people on MN, and being lovely isn't quite good enough if you are going to be held up as an expert or advisor on a topic. That's all.

P.S. - package containing PJ's was on my doorstep when I got home Olivia. TVM

sorry, did you say you were being paid or not? i can't see any mention of it.

gosh vicki i can imagine you think we're all being awfully harsh but i suppose i'd like to know that if you're just on here offering your opinion then how does that make you different from any of us? you need to be BETTER than us, don't you see? because if you're not, you're just another HCP with an opinion and tbvh the reason we're on here in the first place is to avoid them...

but as i say i'm sure you're an absolute diamond to have as a one-to-one supporter and very good at your job, it's just that i don't think you're better than the entire might of MN, with all its research scientists, midwives, geneticists, doctors, nurses, breastfeeding advisors, doulas and just downright clever, experienced and interesting mums, so i don't know why Philips Avent think that you are the perfect advertising medium for us. it's a shame, because i am sure you are very good at your day-to-day job. it's just the wrong campaign in the wrong place. have a great christmas, don't take this to heart. but have a word with your boss (if you haven't already).

Vicki, it is not personal and i can empathise with how it can feel even when you know it isn't. I think you may already know that MNers have a healthy disrespect for authority which on a whole is one of its strengths. I think that, besides some of the information which a few MNers find dubious or outdated, they are also seeing someone who has been parachuted in as an 'expert' (originally) so it is like waving a rag at a bull in some ways.

I can see that you have partially addressed the issue I raised. I do agree that looking after a baby as a maternity nurse gives a different insight into infant feeding than being on a ward. From my POV, it ought to have been an experience which enhanced what you already knew from the wards, no? And was not necessarily a better experience. I agree that having no amt of letters after you name does not necessarily mean you are an effective coach. However, we did ask for them because as I said in paragraph one, MNers have a healthy disrespect for authority and we would like to have a good gauge as to how come they have become an 'authority'. But more importantly, I think providing information on a public forum cannot be treated as if you are speaking to an individual mum who you has hired you. So you have to present your information (CV) for a wider audience. I have seen for example, TikTok outline more than once what her infant feeding knowledge encompasses, meaning, what her training as a bfc entails and also importantly how she has to keep her knowledge up to date.

I still feel that to tell me that you sit through 'every feed for 2-6 wks' is hyperbole. Come on. We are both bf mums who know what that entails. Surely a Mat Nurse is hired for more thngs than watching a new mum feed. I would hope that mine, if i ever have the money to have one, would do the jobs around the house that I was neglecting while I was feeding but to leave them and be next to me if i was in tears with cracked nipples. Other than that, I would want her to crack on with the other jobs and just be there for me to shout for assistance or to bring me more biscuits.

I don't want this to be taken the wrong way and is by no means intended to belittle the service you provide on a one to one basis, but this forum is not a one to one basis so you cannot address this board as you do a mum. I understand that full on presenting your qualifications may put some people off but in my (naive?) mind, I think that people hire Mat nurses because they are supposed to have above average experience and/or knowledge about this baby malarky?

However, it is no longer important to me to know what your infant feeding qualifications actually are so I won't ask anymore for them. I did want to know what they were whe dubious and outdated information was first presented. I feel this way eventhough I know that when I present my qualifications in RL it is important to give names and dates of any relevant courses I have attended which make me up for the job.

As you know, this forum prides itself in presenting non-biased, evidence based and current advice on infant feeding. It is a reputation which has been earnestly built on a lot of freely given but no less valuable hours by a lot of mums who do not expect gratitude.

So when a commercial entity parachutes in a frontwoman who gives advice which goes against some fundamental, current recommendations on infant feeding, then it doesn't matter who it was. That person would still be challenged as many of us feel that it is a reputation we have a right to guard jealousy. It does feel like we are being taken on a ride. It is (only) partly why I am taking a MN holiday. (Yes, I am, hunker.)

I am sure you are very enthusiastic about the work you do with new mums. I know that it gives you a great insight into the challenges new mums face and hope you can take away some positives from the grilling I have given. I hope you take away more from MN than you gave and i don't mean that in a bad way. That is how I have been feeling about MN now that I am in a reflective mode of my role and the the hours wasted spent on here.