Not being controversial honestly but I'm interested.....

[Manictigger]

...in the different reasons why people use formula whether it's by choice or due to circumstances. I've been bf for 7 months now and I do it a) for peace of mind (there's a history of allergies on DH's side and I would feel so guilty if later down the line lo developed an allergy and I know that I chose not to do something that might have prevented it from happening) Also, lo was born underweight so I felt she needed all the help she could get in life (but those are reasons personal to me). Anyway, b) I'm a lazy cow and would find all that bottle malarkay a faff (even at my lowest, most exhausted point with thrush the idea of dragging my carcass downstairs to make up a bottle sounded like an even worse horrendous nightmare) In fact in a way, I think bottle feeders should be given credit for putting in the effort which a lazy cow like me is unwilling to do.

So like I say, I'm interested in whether people always intended to use formula or whether they had to because bfing went wrong (and whether those people felt they were given the support they needed)and whether formula feeders (whatever their circumstances) think it's right that bf is actively promoted in the NHS. FWIW, I think it's right that bf is promoted by the NHS because according to one survey, a sizeable number of women believe that formula is just as good as bm which as mature MNers we know it isn't but equally I think the NHS is wrong to push that message without also acknowledging that most women will initially have problems and without providing good support for such women.

Anyway, like I say, I'm genuinely interested in seeing the other side of the ff/bf debate because usually it all descends into a playground fight which helps no-one and creates more divisions and prejudice.

So PLAY NICELY

(actually feel a bit guilty because I'm off to plant potatoes now but I will return at some stage)

"ffeeders get support from HV's for any problems they have with bottle feeding"

No they don't - or have you not read the posts which say the exact opposite? to reiterate - I got NO support or advice when bottlefeeding

La leche league may be volunteers (but there are paid staff as well as there is in the NCT) but what about NHS or surestart funded BFing supporters?

Moondog - your comment was offensive and to anyone else who think bottle feeding is easy, its not. Being responsible for a childs life or death is never easy - and I mean the fact that if you don't feed them they will die.

JJ has posted a good summery of the types of questions FF or bottle feeders might have. When I raised some of these my HV refused to answer any questions on the grouns tiktok has said - we can't advise on formula because it would be marketing?!?!?!

btw that was when I asked how to sterlise the bottles.

tiktok - its a bit strange that you claim "Anyone on mumsnet will tell you I am never judgemental towards people on the grounds of their feeding 'methods'"

I feel you do judge women who chose to FF and I certinaly feel that you try to minimise their reasons and their choices. That is just my 'feeling' but if I react that way maybe other people do to?

Oh and a pro of bottlefeeding? that anyone can give the child food - and this is a pro, cos what if mum dies? or is physically unable to BF one day? (okay thats an extreme example but the simple fact that the child isn't solely depedant on one human being for its nourishment is a pro)

A benefit or pro of FF is that it allows the birth mother to get more uninterupted sleep, you may not agree that this is an important consideration, you may feel that mums ought not to want to get more than 3hrs sleep, but again you cna't deny that fact that if someone else can give baby a bottle mum is able to sleep through a feed.
(don't say well you can get someone to bring baby to you just to feed- that still interupts your sleep!)
I personally think sleep is pretty important given that depression, hallucinations, psychosis and eventually death are a result of not enough sleep.

A pro of FFing? that baby isn't drinking blood (yes that only happens in some cases but then they claim that reduced risk of allergies is a pro of BFing and that only applies in some cases)

I find it really sad, that women who have made the decision are still being forced to justify their choice, even on here where we are all supposed to be helping and supporting each other throught the difficulties of being a parent....yes, breast is best, and I don't think anyone can really argue that point, so much so that the pro reasons, benefits, or whatever you want to call them, do seem rather weak in comparison. However I think it is really unconstructive to attack women for their individual choice based on their own and ultimately rather personal reasons.

My mantra will always be...try it...if it works, all to the good, if not, at least there are options available....I dread to think how many children suffered developmentally, or worse still died, before the advent of formula milk. Of course we could bring back wet nurses.....then all the advocates of extended BF could start up a whole new career for themselves when their LOs (or should that be BOs) have self weaned (she said with tongue planted very much in cheek )

Tiktok, thanks, that's a good point, I'll remember that when the time comes. Her op is next month but she's thinking of starting a family in the not too distant future. I know she's had a lot of counselling about the mastectomy but I don't know whether they've gone over bf in any more depth than 'you obviously won't be able to'. At the moment she's quite pragmatic about it all but I'm sure that may change after the op when reality, and later the pg hormones, kick in! Is there anyone specific she could talk to, or any forums you know of, that could help?

sunnyjim - I find it hard to defend myself to you. I don't judge people who formula feed, and that's a fact. If you get a 'feeling' I do, perhaps you could enlighten me as to how this has happened. Please don't confuse my opinion on the health impact of infant feeding choices with my opinions on the people who make these choices - I am aware I don't have the ability to judge anyone as an individual, or to assess the reasons for their decision. I don't know what you mean about me 'minimising' their reasons, sorry - it's up to the individual what their priorities are, and that's a good thing.

It is not harmful to a baby to swallow mother's blood, so while the poor mum certainly needs help to stop the misery of sore nipples, you cannot say it is a 'benefit of formula' that the baby does not swallow blood.

Sleep - that's an individual thing. Not getting more than three hours sleep at a time can be part and parcel of having a baby. Not all formula feeding babies sleep more than three hours at a time, and not all mothers have someone else around at night to give the bottle. It would be preposterous to put 'more sleep than 3 hrs' on a list of 'pros and cons' as if this was a benefit of formula. And if you put on a list 'if you don't get enough sleep, then you risk hallucinations and even death' would be utterly crazy - and I am sure you didn;t mean that!

I have already explained that saying 'someone else can feed the baby' is not necessarily a pro, and to some people could be a disadvantage of formula feeding. It would be daft to put on a list 'a pro of formula feeding is that the baby can have its food from another source if you die'.....you agreed it was extreme, so why mention it? And if the mother dies, then of course the baby would have formula then, but the idea that this translates into a 'benefit of formula' on this list we're talking about just doesn't work.

Can you not accept there is a difference between 'pros of formula feeding' which are very individual, personal, and non-research based, and 'benefits of formula' which do not exist?

"A benefit or pro of FF is that it allows the birth mother to get more uninterupted sleep"

sorry sunnyjim, that just isn't true, many bf mums get a good night's sleep, esp. the ones that co-sleep. there is nothing SCIENTFICALLY proven to tell us that a bf baby sleeps less than a ff one.

i don't wish to give you a full anecdote of my life (too boring !), but suffice it to say that i have had chronic insomnia (an illness - i have taken sleeping tablets on and off most of my life) since i was 13, yet at the age of 36 when ds was born i managed to survive 9 months of broken sleep, the longest stretch i managed to get was 4 hours. dh co-slept with ds far more often than i did. they would come and wake me to give ds a bfeed ! ds started to sleep through at 9 months, which i read somewhere is the average age that most babies begin to sleep through.

length of sleep has much more to do with the age/weight of the baby, not much to do with how they are fed.

Oli - your friend will find support from Mothers Overcoming Breastfeeding Issues. Google it and it's the first hit.

can i say as a chroic insomniac with a dh who only ever sleeps 4 - 5 hours per night (naturally, he can't sleep more than that ever) that you CAN NOT die from lack of sleep, unless you are being totured in a cell and being deliberatley kept awake ! even people like us who do not sleep well have a body clock that adjusts and no matter how far you are into sleep deprivation, you SURVIVE !

sorry, that should have said chronic

We'll cross that one off the list then, yellow

can i just say that i don't think tiktok is judgemental about parents who choose ff, i have read many of her posts, and i just don't think it is true.

Ta, YR - it's true, I am really not.

yellowrose, I didn't mean that FF babies fed less than BF babies, what I was refering to is given that ALL babies need to feed at least every 3-4 hrs at first.
If you are solely BFing it is impossible for you to get more than 3-4 hrs sleep at any one time.
If you are Bottle feeding it IS possible to get more than 3-4 hrs sleep in one stretch.

I also stand by my ground that 'someone else being able to feed the baby' is a PRO, you may not want to give up your special psotion as the provider of food but simply put isn't it a GOOD thing if there are other people who are able to feed your baby just in case?

Anyway - here's my first draft of a leaflet for parent on feeding your child. As someone said I shouldn't moan about the lack of support unless I was prepared to do something about it - here goes. If you would like to add anything to it please add a comment.

The sleeping theory doesn't work for everyone, my 1st was 3-4 hourly on the clock bf, no 2 was totally erratic on bm and was still erratic on formula at 6 weeks. No3 fed every 90 mins during the day but slept 7-7 all night from 3 weeks old. No4 tube fed bm slept through the night from birth (but I could add extra milk through the tube while she was sleeping lol)

It all depends on the baby not the method of feeding

And I have had some very minor run ins on here with some but I do have to say, tiktok has always been very honest but never ever judgemental, it is part of the extensive training BFC receive

sunny - i really do think it comes down to priorities then.

for dh and i - the vampire couple, because we lack sleep and love sleeping in the dark - lack of more sleep for what was a very short time (1 year for most parents ?) in a child's entire life span, was less important than the the fact that we thought he would be a healthier baby/child if fully bf until 6 months and than bf after that depending on how long ds and i wanted to do it.

if you believe that bf babies/toddlers are less sick than ff ones, than that is a rather crucial factor to weigh in because as we all know sick babies wake up frequently and make everyone's like absolute misery for days on end. we are very lucky in that ds was/is never sick at nearly 3 yo, even in the winter months when many of our friends/family toddlers seem to have constant colds/flu.

i am aware that ff toddlers can be very healthy too, i am just giving you my own reasons for making the choices i made

it may help to make a list of what you think is importnat in your life as a parent and for your baby and allow that to form your decisions.

i will read your leaflet and post back.

have only read the last few posts but needed to say that in no sense at all is tiktok judgemental to ff mothers. she gives a huge amount to these boards and i will need her help if i ever have another baby. as a ff mother, i received her help when i was looking for answers as to what might have happened and why it didn't work out for me last time.

I'm another that supports the tremendous work that tik tok does on this site in a very sympathetic manner.

When I was exclusively breastfeeding,though, I used to worry so much about getting sick and how was my child gonna feed so that's a fair statement about maternal illness or death.

Hi there all. I find this distinction between "benefits" and "pros" interesting, and I'm not sure I understand it. That breast milk as a substance is more beneficial to the baby than formula is a given, and that is an absolute, objective statement that has nothing to do with personal cicumstances etc. BUT surely EVERY other aspect of feeding, and there are loads, must by definition be considered on a purely personal level: mother's physical and mental wellbeing, involvement of other family members, baby's needs and preferences (in a wider sense than purely in relation to the contents of the milk) etc. So, milk contents aside (and yes I do acknoledge that milk content IS of fundamental importance, but it's not the only thing to consider), whether we are discussing BF or FF, we can surely ONLY deal in "personal" pros or benefits (whichever word we choose to use). To imply that FF benefits are purely personal whereas BF benefits are absolute and across-the-board, doesn't seem to make sense to me...

i have commented on your other thread sunny.

Jacks, I see your point, and I actually agree with it - but the discussion was looking at a putative sheet of paper with 'pros and cons of breastfeeding' on one side and 'pros and cons of formula feeding on the other' and my point was that it just doesn't work like that!!

As soon as you put 'feeding' into the equation, you're talking about relationships, not 'contents' of the milk. And when it comes to relationships, I really don't want someone deciding what is 'best' for me and listing it. I want the facts, and then I can decide what my priorities are.

I do want the correct facts, though, and not myths

p.s. must also comment that Tiktok does not seem at all judgmental to me but a very wise person with lots of really helpful stuff to say.

Our last posts crossed Tiktok - thanks for your response and I do now see better what you're saying (and still think you are Very Wise...)

sunny - i have just read your bf section, it has quite a few factual errors, for example re. diet and switching between bf and ff or mix feeding, etc.

I think an idea would be to decide WHO this leaflet is aimed at and WHY ? Is it to help parents to decide between bf and ff ?

If so you need to be very FACTUAL and SCIENTIFIC, as it stands there are too many errors in the bf section.

i totaly agree with tiktok, parents need to be given the facts. it is the best way to make a non-judgemental, value-free choice.

when i decided to bf and made dh want it too through constant yellowrose lectures all i was interested in were the facts, i really really wasn't interested in people's personal experiences and shut them out, because at the end of the day it was OUR choice not someone elses.

...they included the very elderly neighbour and my female gp, who in their attempt to "help" when i said i was exhausted said "give baby a bottle of formula at 10pm every night", this obvioulsy came from their personal repetory of life experiences, not from some valid scientific thing re. feeding. i had to check kellymom.com and other webistes, books, constantly to get a grasp of the facts.

it is very very difficult for a new parent to judge between who is giving the facts and who fiction, which is why i insist on the facts.