Not being controversial honestly but I'm interested.....

[Manictigger]

...in the different reasons why people use formula whether it's by choice or due to circumstances. I've been bf for 7 months now and I do it a) for peace of mind (there's a history of allergies on DH's side and I would feel so guilty if later down the line lo developed an allergy and I know that I chose not to do something that might have prevented it from happening) Also, lo was born underweight so I felt she needed all the help she could get in life (but those are reasons personal to me). Anyway, b) I'm a lazy cow and would find all that bottle malarkay a faff (even at my lowest, most exhausted point with thrush the idea of dragging my carcass downstairs to make up a bottle sounded like an even worse horrendous nightmare) In fact in a way, I think bottle feeders should be given credit for putting in the effort which a lazy cow like me is unwilling to do.

So like I say, I'm interested in whether people always intended to use formula or whether they had to because bfing went wrong (and whether those people felt they were given the support they needed)and whether formula feeders (whatever their circumstances) think it's right that bf is actively promoted in the NHS. FWIW, I think it's right that bf is promoted by the NHS because according to one survey, a sizeable number of women believe that formula is just as good as bm which as mature MNers we know it isn't but equally I think the NHS is wrong to push that message without also acknowledging that most women will initially have problems and without providing good support for such women.

Anyway, like I say, I'm genuinely interested in seeing the other side of the ff/bf debate because usually it all descends into a playground fight which helps no-one and creates more divisions and prejudice.

So PLAY NICELY

(actually feel a bit guilty because I'm off to plant potatoes now but I will return at some stage)

No honestly, Twinkle, I think IF bfing goes well it is easier than ff. Because my lo was born low birth weight she was automatically ff every 3 hours for the first 3 days until my milk appeared and I felt completely crap at giving her a bottle - I couldn't get the angle of her right, the angle of the bottle right, I couldn't wind her properly etc (and that was without the hassle of sterilising and making up feeds because the hospital supplied readymade bottles). I used to pray that feeding time would be due when my dh was visiting because I just became convinced that it was something I was destined never to get the hang of. I think this was part of the baby blues actually because I never collapsed in floods of tears but I remember a whole night spent panicking about never being able to look after something so small and fragile (actually I agree that you're never really given help with bottle feeding, as if that should somehow be instinctive).

And like another poster, I was paranoid about my lo dying of SIDS because I'd read that low birthweight babies are more at risk than others. Talking to other mothers, I think everyone imagines that their baby is more at risk for one reason or another and 7.5 months on, I'm still paranoid about the temperature of lo's room. I shall probably still be worried until she starts school and then I'll find another reason to worry.

Anyway, I'm really grateful for all these replies because it's sort of made sense of that whole question why only a low number of women are still bfing at 6 months. I want to get whoever's responsible in the government by the scruff of the neck, force them to sit in front of a pc and read this and say why didn't YOU ask these people this question if you really want to know the answer. But then aside from the fact that the government think they may save money on future NHS bills if more babies are bf, I'm not sure they really, in their hearts care or why would they be allowing maternity units to shut or midwives to be sacked?

KSlatts and others, it so good to hear people talking baout how FFing made them and bubs happier than BFing.

Tiktok I recognise you feel you have a wealth of wisdom as to why in every case BFing would have worked and that it was all down to a lack of suport. Maybe you are right, all I can say is that it is precisly that type of attitude that makes me feel put under pressure - that if I had just had more courage, or had better support to BF, that I would have BF and me and DS would have been perfectly happy.

It took enourmous courage for me to say 'bugger your scare stories', 'Bugger the peer pressure', 'bugger the moral smugness of people who think they can tell me what to do with my body'.

I honestly wish I'd FF from birth, why? because I DON'T believe that missing out on the possible antibodies in mothers milk would have done DS lasting damage when weighed against a whole host of other criteria.

I think the biggest mistake the pro BFing lobby makes is to make it sound as if BFing is THE most important thing for your baby. Being alive, being healthy, having a mum/carer who is alive, having a mum/carer who is healthy, having parents who love you, having a roof over your head, safety from physical harm, clean water and air for you and your family, having some joy and laughter and cuddles in your life.
these are the really important things in life.

You could feed a baby on Breast milk, but if it wasnt getting the above things - especially the love, joy and cuddles, it woudl fail to thrive. (remember the wire monkeys experiment?)

For some women for a whole range of reasons breastfeeding isn't compatable with the above list. You may not physically be able to BF
You may hate the idea (could be due to abuse, could be other reasons but emotional distress can be crippling)
It could reduce the joy and pleasure you have in your baby
It could be extremly painful
Your baby may have difficulty sucking/getting enough milk.

but enough of that, I'm sure someone will tell me I am wrong and in all those cases you should try and BF anyway.

I have a question for pro BFer's, and I honestly want to know the answer.

If BFing is incredibly painful, AND your baby has lost over 10% of birthweight and isn't regaining it - or is actually losing more.
If neither you or baby is getting more than 30 minutes sleep because BFing is so hard that you spend most of your time rtying to get food into your child.
If your breasts are bleeding into your childs mouth
If your partner is having to watch you in pain, bleeding, emotionally and physically exhausted, and his child losing weight and not getting the right amounts of food.

Why is it couragoues to carry on? especially as when from stories on here it is obviuos that sometimes it doesn't magically all get better after 2 weeks or 4 weeks or whenever.

When would it be okay - how much suffering is okay at the beginning of you and your childs life together because of some unproven benefits later on.

Is it okay for you and baby to be miserable for a week? for a month?

I'd call it matrydom - to continue to put yourself and your family through that.

Sunnyjim, I don't understand what you are asking people like me and other breastfeeding supporters to do, or indeed midwives and other healthcare professionals.

Not to say anything about the need for support? Not to tell people that if they have difficulties breastfeeding that there is information available that might help them? In case someone else who wants to ff feels under pressure?

Why on earth should I not say that someone like twinkle was courageous?

It doesn't mean that other people who chose to stop bf 'ought' to have had her courage.

You think it's right to call people who struggle on 'martyrs'? I can't believe you would be so dimissive of people's right to decide for themselves the priorities in their lives - and it's for that reason I would never presume to answer your question about when is the 'right' time to stop.

All of the events you describe in early breastfeeding can be helped with support and good information. None of them mean anyone has to stop breastfeeding - but any of them might be reason enough for an individual to decide 'enough is enough' and I would never say that is a wrong decision for that individual.

I have never suggested that bf is the most important thing in any baby's life - but the fact is, just from the health point of view, that breastfeeding can go some way to compensate for the health effects of lack of clean air and water and other aspects of poverty, and that for some mothers, it is part and parcel of the love, joy and cuddles they share with the babies. Not for every mother, but for some....because feeding, however it is done, is a relationship between the mother and the baby, and doing it the way they feel is the right way for them should be supported.

I am not morally smug about breastfeeding - and I don't judge anyone for not breastfeeding. You, on the other hand, are indeed judging someone for persevering with enormous difficulties, by dismissing their struggle and their choice as 'martyrdom'.

I really hope you understand where I'm coming from here.

I am a po breastfeeder for my own kids. Fed ds for four years and dd for 3. I had those type of problems you describe for the first ten days of ds's life. THe support I was given was incorrect in hospital and he was also given formula all of which made breastfeeding difficult for those first few days. I had the blood in his mouth too.
When I had dd I ignored the incorrect hospital advice and had no problems. One thing they told me to do was give formuala to her. When I refused to they left me alone. I was the only mum on my ward who was excluseively breastfeeding and I had refused formula the fact that she cried through the first few nights was blamed on me. I knew she didnt need formual and the feedign was fine. What I needed was someone to cuddle her for me so I could get some sleep.
I was unable to go home for a few days due to a difficult birth for us both otherwise would have left straight away.

I really liked your last post. Imo the reasons you stated are of course valid reasons for giving formula.

I dont agree with the martyrs thing though or support. You only need to look at the stats to see how little support there is.

Herc - who can say what is a 'valid' reason for giving formula? The whole situation is fraught with people's choice, information, what they feel is right for them etc etc - it's up to the individual to decide what is 'valid'.

DS1 (born nearly seven years ago) was a 'crash' section due to a ruptured placenta; we were neither of us well. I could not get him to latch on, and there wasn't much support in the hospital (not the UK). However, I was supplied with an electric pump and encouraged to use it. Result = that i pumped everything he needed for nearly three months, with occasional attempts to latch on which didn't work. By chance, i then met a fellow ex-pat who had used an excellent counsellor, who had got her baby to latch on at 3m. And she did the same for mine! She said he needed to be older to latch reliably because of an unusually high palate.

However, the stress of not being able to feed, repeated 'failures' at latching on, etc, made me adamant that I would just use formula with a second baby - I felt that my early time with DS had been totally poisoned by the bf issue.

But ... DD arrived two weeks ago, another section and into intensive care. We were in hospital (NHS) for nine days, and received LOTS of help with bf, but still no reliable latch. And I'm pumping again, a lot more relaxed about it, ignoring all the well-meaning or just plain bullying advice I'm getting from HVs. I know i can express for 3m, I've done it before, and at that stage 83% of the total benefits of bf will have made their way into my baby (so i was told). And if she latches on in the mean time, hooray. But I'm not going to obsess about it.

That's what I mean, tiktok just not said the same way as you.

What I mean is that people give formula for those reasons and yet often feel judged for those same reasons. But I think you shouldnt feel judged for them or for even simply not liking breastfeeding.

Totally agree, herc

Sorry tiktok and OP for getting het up - I guess we just have to agree that we have very different views on this.

In answer to your question tiktok, what I'd like to see is 'feeding' suporters not 'Breastfeeding supporters'. Because then I'd feel able to ask people for support no matter what my individual choice was.

I'd like to have somewhere to go for help and advice when choosing to FF just like BF women have La leche league etc.

I'd like to have been asked "how are you feeding your baby" rather than "are you breasfeeding" because the former implies its a choice

I'd like MW, HV and pro BFing people to listen when women tell them things like "I don't want to BF", or "Its really painful". And not to immediatly say - yes but.......

I'd have liked to be asked, "do you need any additional information to help you make that decision"
and if I said yes to be given a balanced factsheet one side giving pros and cons of BFing, one side giving Pro's and Con's of FFing - with no emotive claims, no 'stories' from mothers and any 'scientific claims' to be fully referenced so I could make my own mind up whether I thought they were supportable claims.

If I said "no, I don't need any more information to make up my mind I am 100% decided" I would have liked to be given a factsheet offering support and advice for the feeding method I had chosen, and for people to accept and respect my choice and not to go on about the other methods.

I guess I found it incredibly intrusive, patronising and insulting to have MW and HV refusing to accept my choice and asking me to explain my reasons. Providing baby was healthy and I was healthy surely they should accept my choice?

Always an interesting and controversial one. First off, I would say it is completely down to individual circumstances. My sister and I were both bottle fed and have suffered no lasting damage (and I am in my 30's!) I breasfed dd1 for a total of 6 weeks - and the last 5 weeks of that it was the most painful thing ever. I had cracked and sore nipples and learnt the meaning of toe curling pain. It was so painful that I was putting off feeding and crying every time I had to do it. As a result dd1 was not happy and nor was I. Switched to ff and all was rosy ! dd slept through the night and as a happy contented baby - now 4.5 yrs old and no health problems at all. dd2 was born in Jan and although I was willing to give bf a go I was determind not to carry on just because of the guilt and pressure I felt first time round. Had the same pain problems added with the fact that dd2 was 10lb at birth and very hungry - is now weaning at 3 months. So after 3 weeks of bf rather unsucessully I switched to ff and again, everyone is happy. It has to be an individual decision - and I would agree bf is probably best for baby, but it isn't always the case and I feel sorry for people who are suffering due to guilt or pressure. As far as I am aware they have never cited ff as being BAD for a baby, just not quite as good as bf.

OK, sunnyjim - always happy to accept people have different views

I think your suggestions on how the whole issue could be inttroduced are fine, and in fact, 'have you thought about how you might feed your baby?' is accepted good practice now, rather than 'are you going to breastfeed?'. The offer of more information is made as an invitation, to be accepted or not, and I think that's fine, too.

You're asking for information and support to formula feed, in the form of a support group like LLL. But there is no way of sharing independent information about different formulas - you are talking about commercial products and the details of the ingredients are only shared if they are some sort of selling point. Manufacturers cannot be relied on to give the whole truth - only just recently they have been ordered to stop making unverifiable health claims about added ingredients. Has anyone heard from a manufacturer that powdered milk may contact bacteria, and it's for this reason the guidelines on making up feeds have changed? No....

It is just not possible to do a sheet of equal pros and cons when it comes to infant feeding. There are no benefits to formula, for example (except in very individual circumstances). I do agree that any scientific claims should be referenced, and I do agree that no one should be patronised or criticised, and their decision should be respected.

Buffyfan - I agee...people should not suffer guilt or pressure.

But I think you are mistaken to minimise the potential health impact of formula feeding - it's not the case that it is simply 'not quite as good as breast', but this thread is probably not the place to re-hash that old argument

Manictigger - I've just seen your reply. Not read the rest of today's posts yet. I couldn't agree with you more. I was just making the point that women often make the comment about being too lazy to formula feed at the same time as doubting other women's reasons for doing so (and I'm not saying that applies to you, I'm talking generally). I just think that such remarks in that context display an ignorance of just how difficult breastfeeding can actually be.

Actually, Twinkle I think I prob shouldn't have used the word lazy because it implies that breastfeeding is no effort when what I really meant was that I found bf easier (when it was going well) than I ever did bottle feeding. But I think it's lovely that everyone is being really careful not to offend anyone else still (Unlike that horrible weaning board.... )

I couldn't agree more with sunnyjim's most recent post and feel compelled to respond to a few comments made in response to it:

1. "You're asking for information and support to formula feed, in the form of a support group like LLL. But there is no way of sharing independent information about different formulas..." The idea that it is not possible to offer to support to forumua feeding mothers is just wrong and such support would be greatly appreciated by many women, including myself. There is more to formula feeding than simply choosing a formula. From a few weeks old my baby had an incredibly difficult time eating. He cried, thrashed, and refused to eat. I eventually switched to formula feeding. (I refuse to apologize for or explain this decision as so many seem to do). It has been months now of me trying to work out his eating, and I cannot. Because there is no one to offer me bottle feeding support, it is left to me, the first-time mother, to determine the pros and cons of different bottles, whether I am holding the baby and the bottle correctly, whether the teat is too fast or too slow, whether my baby has his mouth on the teat correctly, whether his sucking seems normal or labored, whether his fussing and crying when eating (which seem exceesive to me) is normal or indicative of a problem etc etc etc. The response I quoted above is a perfect example of how people are dismissive of problems formula feeders face, while no stone is left unturned when offering help and support to struggling breastfeeders.

1. "It is just not possible to do a sheet of equal pros and cons when it comes to infant feeding. There are no benefits to formula, for example..." First of all, sunnyjim asked for a BALANCED, not equal, sheet of pros and cons. That means don't list all the pros of breastfeeding and all the cons of formula feeding. If you're haing trouble coming up with benefits to formula feeding, ask any mother who has chosen to formula feed -- I bet she will be able give you pros of formula feeding and cons of breastfeeding. Re-read this statement and ask yourself why so many women seem to develop complexes about their choice to formula feed.

I was the one who pointed out the problems in providing support groups for ff mothers - of course I do not think ff mothers should not be supported, and of course I am aware there can be problems with feeding formula....I am certainly not dismissive of them, and I know they cause real distress. But the sort of volunteer support that's offered to breastfeeding mothers can't be replicated for formula feeders for many reasons - one of the reasons is there is no way of really giving informed advice about formula brands.

The other point : When she said 'balanced' I thought she meant 'equal' - she did say 'one side for bf' and 'one side for ff' which I took to mean 'the same amount of info for each' - I have read her post again, and I think I have understood it correctly. I know there are 'pros' to formula feeding experienced by individuals - that's not what I said, though. I said there are no 'benefits to formula'...which is different.

Hope that makes it a bit clearer.

Not read all but read over half

I find it so sad that the health service is so hit and miss. I have seen people say after 1-2 days I had no milk and NHS said FF. In my antenatal groups we were told not to expect any milk for maybe over 3 days. Also, the babies is special care..... I was so encouraged to express (big daisy machine was put by my bed, colustrum then milk was put in a special fridge, all labelled and then given to baby in order. Then when she was discharged, I took it home and put it in my freezer) No one ever even suggested formula.

If the support and good information were there, I think more people would persevere.

I'd also like to see more acceptance for both sides. I can understand mums that really don't want to BF for whatever reason and in an ideal world it would be acceptable to get your boobs out wherever/whenever

I had mixed experiences BF...1st one knew exactly what to do until 3 months then stopped suddenly, 2nd I stopped at 6 weeks as I was overwhelmed after just a year age gap and was a bit depressed, 3rd bf 7+months and 4th never had a gag reflex so had bm through a nose tube and then formula

I was lucky, I had good support for all my feeding. I wish everyone had the same

Been reading some of the posts this thread with interest. My son, now 6, was bf exclusively until 3 months. I then started giving him formula feeds so hubby could help more. No problems there. As long as he was fed, he wasn't bothered how it got in his tummy!

My daughter, 6 months today!!, has been exclusively bf. She didn't take to a bottle at all. We started weaning at 4 months and she is gaining weight really well.

I think moms should listen to their babies. Happy baby + happy mommy!! IMHO, anyway

kami - of course you qualified for bf support, as does any mother (apart from the ones who are happily formula feeding and obviously don't need support ) who is breastfeeding in any way, and giving any breastmilk, or who is formula feeding and with mixed feelings about not breastfeeding, maybe wanting to preserve whatever bf they are doing, or even wanting to talk about going back to bf. All breastfeeding counsellors should be able to support women in these circumstances, and we don't judge, truly.

tiktok -- actually, your argument is still not clear to me.

It sounds that you are saying that the type of support offered to breasfeeders cannot be offered to formula feeders because there is no way of giving advice about formula brands. But you obviously don't give advice about breastmilk brands, yet you find it possible to advise on breastfeeding issues/problems. My point is, formula feeding, just like breastfeeding, can raise many issues/problems other than the composition of the liquid you are putting in your babies mouth. Breastfeeders are on how to correctly position baby and breast, why can't bottle-feeders be advised on correct positioning for baby and bottle. Breastfeeders are advised on how to determine if the letdown is too fast or too slow, why can't bottle-feeders be advised on whether their babies are coping with the flow of the teat on their bottle? Etc. Etc.

And I don't see the distiction between a "pro" and a "benefit". If you explain the difference to me I bet I'll be able to come up with both a pro and benefit of formula feeding.

Blimey,how difficult can it be to put a bottle in a baby's mouth.......

wow moondog -- you prove my point perfectly.

why don't you ask the tons of women who struggle to pump and give their babies breastmilk with a bottle. i'm sure it's all just peachy for them too.

thanks for your insight.