Not being controversial honestly but I'm interested.....

[Manictigger]

...in the different reasons why people use formula whether it's by choice or due to circumstances. I've been bf for 7 months now and I do it a) for peace of mind (there's a history of allergies on DH's side and I would feel so guilty if later down the line lo developed an allergy and I know that I chose not to do something that might have prevented it from happening) Also, lo was born underweight so I felt she needed all the help she could get in life (but those are reasons personal to me). Anyway, b) I'm a lazy cow and would find all that bottle malarkay a faff (even at my lowest, most exhausted point with thrush the idea of dragging my carcass downstairs to make up a bottle sounded like an even worse horrendous nightmare) In fact in a way, I think bottle feeders should be given credit for putting in the effort which a lazy cow like me is unwilling to do.

So like I say, I'm interested in whether people always intended to use formula or whether they had to because bfing went wrong (and whether those people felt they were given the support they needed)and whether formula feeders (whatever their circumstances) think it's right that bf is actively promoted in the NHS. FWIW, I think it's right that bf is promoted by the NHS because according to one survey, a sizeable number of women believe that formula is just as good as bm which as mature MNers we know it isn't but equally I think the NHS is wrong to push that message without also acknowledging that most women will initially have problems and without providing good support for such women.

Anyway, like I say, I'm genuinely interested in seeing the other side of the ff/bf debate because usually it all descends into a playground fight which helps no-one and creates more divisions and prejudice.

So PLAY NICELY

(actually feel a bit guilty because I'm off to plant potatoes now but I will return at some stage)

After a rocky start (baby losing too much weight and developing jaundice due to my milk not coming through) a very weepy mummy and bemused daddy were admitted to the birthing centre at the local hospital, even though i didnt give birth there (whole different can of worms!). The admission was at my request because i was worried about my baby (also i had had no sleep at all for three days as baby feeding hourly) and i have to say, the staff were brilliant, i told the community midwife that i really wanted to breast feed and by golly, that woman wasnt going to have it any other way (scary german matriach type). At the birth centre i was able to relax and feed my baby, we topped her up with formula on the midwives advice and they woke me every three hours so i could bf and establish my milk supply. They gave us a double room so daddy could stay and they didnt send me home until i wanted to go (very lucky as no one else needed the room). I would have probably given up on bf if it wasnt for their support. I always had problems with it however and was either feeding or expressing for the first 3 months but managed to feed her exclusively on breast milk for that time. Due to illness i had to give up completely at 6 months and although i was upset at having to stop i was so grateful for all the support i received from the birth centre. Interestingly, i was told in no uncertain terms at the begning that i was doing my baby a grave disservice bf, by both my mother, aunt and MIL who seem to think that natures way is unnatural. I'm quite surprised by this attitude, however while i was pregnant i was worried that i would not be comfortable with it. After all, those are daddy's toys are they not! I had bf my eldest dd (15 year gap!) for about 6 weeks but gave up at the first hurdle, on advice of my HV at the time, who took the attitude that if it wasnt working then give it up. I'm glad things have changed and i feel that mothers who really want to bf should be given all the support they need. That said, a decision to bottle feed is just as valid, my cousin bottle fed all four of hers and they are all healthy young people now. Sadly however it seems to matter where you are, my neice in law, who is quite young, as i was with my eldest DD wanted to bf but her milk did not come through straight away (im not sure its supposed to, is it?) so the midwife told her to bottle feed. I have to say the one thing im grateful for is not having to get up in the night and do bottles as we had got through the night feeds before i gave up - phew! i dont do cold kitchens, but then, thats what dads are for I can remember being quite brazen about BF in public, much to DPs horror, i would get them out anywhere (i have never been shy and of ample bosom!) and if people chose to stare i would assume they were wondering at the marvels of nature. I remember being in a rather trendy bistro (not my usual hang out i hasten to add) in greenwich and BF my little one, with daddy almost crawling under the table with embarrasment. There was another couple perched around the same bench and after a bit of whispering, (i thought i had offended them) she got hers out too - hurrah. So i have never felt embarrased to BF in public ever. BUT i felt as if all maternal scorn was being poured upon me when, once my little one was 6 months old i began bottle feeding, i could feel the icy stares of other mothers in a local cafe favoured by the mummy set with posters encouraging bf. I think its a shame that woman who have to or chose to bottle feed should be made to feel this was when they are doing what is right for them and their family. End of waffle 000000000

I was brainwashed by the breast is best brigade when DS1 was born, to the extent that I made myself ill trying to feed him (he was a nightmare feeder) and if anyone even suggested formula I would hyperventilate. It did not do anything that I was led to believe it would, such as prevent eczema, colic, etc etc and the HV drove me crazy with all the talk of lactose intolerance to my breast milk and fore and hind milk, and when I was pg with DS2 I had serious issues with it. When DS2 came along, he was equally unsettled, even though my feeding technique was much better, and when the HV started again on all this, I lost my temper and told her I would be off to get some SMA as soon as she left if she didn't stop (She did stop), as she was making me ill. DS2 point blank refused to take a bottle, which was wearing in a different way. This time? I don't know - I think I will try for a while but also try to Bottle feed too.

Nogoes, you said "Tiktok made an interesting point on a thread the other day that the research regarding weaning at 6 months only applies to bf babies and that it may be beneficial if formula fed babies were weaned earlier but there is no research out there at all regarding formula feeding."

That overstates what I said - I don't think there is any good evidence that ff babies need weaning sooner, and what little research there is shows that formula is fine to sustain growth for that time but it is certainly possible that formula may not satisfy a baby nutritionally because it does not change (unlike breastmilk). Just to clarify

Lucyellensmum, that sounds like great support at the birthing centre, where in the country are you?

Okay, wrists slapped.

Things won't kick off if we exchange experiences in a calm way - mention of 'brainwashing' and 'breast is breast brigade' are not helpful to this calmness, sorry.

Not slapping your wrists at all nogoes!!

i am in KEnt and this was at Canterbury hospital, had to give birth at a different hospital as i wanted the reassurance of all things beepy and medical, almost needed them too but natural birth after 27 hours! might have had a better time at the birthing centre and been more relaxed mind, but anyway. I had a completely different experience at the hospital, midwives were impatient and to be frank, quite bullying, i had serveral conflicting opinions thrust upon me in the one evening i could bear to stay there. To top that off, my baby picked up an infection of her umbilicus as one of the HCAs, when bathing baby, advised that i tuck this into the nappy! So, it just matters where you are i think. I should shut up of course before i say something too controversial, have decided to only say nice flowery things on MN from now on

My dd was born on 35weeks. I tried hard to breastfeed her. I had to feed her every 3 hours. After just about 3 days my husband told me to stop, I was upset because she didn't feed well. She couldn't latch on properly and we both were concerned about the amount of milk she got. Well, after struggling for an hour to breastfeed her and another hour of formula to top her up and getting 30min of sleep at night I stopped.
So after 4 days I just gave her formula. She is thriving. She is 10months old now and has never been sick.
I feel that they almost force you to breastfeed your baby here. I'm from SA and there they give you a choice. I feel that over here you have to breastfeed your baby otherwise you're a bad mum. (that's the way they made me feel)
I'll bottlefeed my next baby aswell.

Lucyellensmum, I wanted to give birth at our birthing centre, I went there a couple of times to be monitored and it really felt like a home from home, very relaxed atmosphere but I too had to give birth at the hospital as I needed a c-section. It would be interesting to see if there is a higher rate of bf babies born at home or in birthing centres as I wonder if the sometimes hostile intimidating environment of a general hospital has an effect on the mothers ability to bf.

I tried to breastfeed for three days. I had fantastic support in hospital and was told that the latch was good (that was when ds managed to latch on) but the rest of the time he wouldn?t latch properly. He got collostrum, but the longer I tried the harder it was and my nipples were agonizing. Went home and just couldn?t go through that any more, I tried to express but wasn?t able to express anything. Switched to formula and never looked back. My milk never came in so even if I?d persevered I would have been unable to continue breastfeeding. I felt no guilt as I was doing what was best for my child. It?s a line between persiveering because you?re doing what should be the most natural thing in the world and it?s best for your baby, or giving him a bottle because he?s hungry and screaming. In that instance, the bottle is best IMO.

My sister had horrendous problems trying to breastfeed her ds1. he fed for 5 hours at a time, she had bleeding nipples and he was throwing up the blood from her nipples, and still the mw came round and put her on a guilt trip for wanting to give up.

IMO no-one has the right to judge anyone for how they feed, as long as they actually do feed. At least there is formula now ? before the days of formula the infant mortality rate was much higher, would be interesting to know how much of that was to do with the fact that some mothers were unable to adequately breastfeed.

I don't know about anyone else but I'm getting a real insight. (And getting really annoyed at the NHS on some people's behalf)

Deasterjags - should I quit whilst I'm ahead!?

tasja, that is such a sad story. 35-weekers are notoriously difficult to feed - their sucking-swallowing co-ordination is undeveloped. You were clearly left without proper help (as there are ways of helping) and instead of help you got pressure

I intially had some trouble bf, but persevered with supportive midwives.

However at 6 weeks I felt like he was feeding all day and night and he wasn´t gaining any weight. HV was no help at all. Bf is really not the norm where I live either. I´ve never seen a woman bf in public, despite frequenting many ´baby friendly´ cafes, so as a result I was very reluctant to do so, which meant I was only getting out of the house for a couple of hours at a time.

Started bottle feeding at 6 weeks, and everything just fell into place. I was happier, ds was sleeping longer and I managed to regain some sense of normality.

Given the chance again, I´d probably do exactly the same thing. At least the baby would be getting some benefit from early bf. I´m not disputing that 6months+ of bf is healthier for the baby, but my sanity was seriously at stake! Refuse to have any regrets, although I do have a lot of respect for those who managed to bf for longer!

This thread just seems to sum up the state of the NHS re midwives & HVs in this country to me. Depending on where you are depends on what help and advice you can get, there's no consistency or continuity apart from the bf message. But that's no good if there's no follow up support!

I breastfed my first dd, if I were to have another one I would probably mix-feed as I found bf exhausting and I don't think I could put as much time and effort into it again whilst looking after a toddler.

For me the main downside of bf is that the mother is the only one who can do it (I know you can express but I only managed to express one bottle full every 2 days) and thus noone else can take over a feed so that the mum can rest. Also, breastfeeding, to be successful, needs to be done quite frequently and the constant feeding and the lack of sleep is exhausting. You are tied to the baby and can't just go anywhere by yourself in case the baby needs a feed.

This would be the reason for me to feed formula next time. However, there are prople who choose it because noone told them that it has to be learned by both mother and baby and then if they have difficulties they just give up. Realistic information at the start and expert support is a must.

I think all these messages stress the necessity of proper support when trying to establish bfing (but NOT pressure if the mum isn't happy or there's obviously a major problem). In comparison to other experiences, DS was a dream - latched on immediately after birth, fed well, galloped up the percentiles (got to 91st in the first fortnight and stayed there ever since). But I STILL would not have been able to manage without a) helpful mws in hospital b) great advice on here c) other resources like Kellymom (esp for growth spurts - they were a shock ) and most importantly, d) LOT OF HELP FROM DH. Those days that I just stayed in bed feeding and sleeping and he would take DS to change him and play with him, take him for walks, especially the few times I felt like I was getting mastitis and really needed the rest.

Why can't we have access to proper care and support not just for a couple of days in hospital but for the first month?

My mum and sister both gave up on bfing after a few weeks cos 'they didn't have enough milk'. If I hadn't had the right info, I'd have given up as well

Had been in labour 50 hours.
Crash CS under GA.
DS had no latch, tried and tried and tried and he never latched on. No drop of anything ever came out/able to be squeezed out of boob.
No midwife support with BF at all, except to give latching on a go a couple of times a day then to say someone else would be along in a bit,which they weren't.
Gave up feeling can't give birth, can't breastfeed.
got home, fell utterly and completely in love with ds, felt am good mum, just can't breastfeed. No one mentioned it to me again, GP, midwife, HV; found out on here I could have given it a go at home and it may not have been too late but felt at the time that once I got home from hospital I had missed my chance.

I mind more as ds gets older that I didn't BF, I really wish I had, but I do look back at myself after the birth and realise that I was too ill to assert myself.

So formula not a positive choice for me, however I am not hysterical about it, ds has thrived beautifully.

this is a really interesting thread...

When I was in hospital four montsh ago (I was there for 5 days unfortunately) I did notice that there was a 'bullying' attitude amongst some of the staff regarding BF. My neighbour also commented on thia and said she would feed formula when she got home. This can only be counter productive. ironically the hospital had just laid off its two BF counsellor midwives.

I had really good support for the time I was there and BF was well established by the time I left. But as a FTM I wonder how things would have been if I had been sent home the same day as my delivery.

BFed DD1 for 6 months "because that's what you're supposed to do". She was lactose intolerant until she was about 7 and is allergic to peanuts. Absolutely hated BFing and was very, very unhappy, so next time around I did it for 2 weeks then went onto bottles. Happy mummy, perfectly happy DD2 with no allergies whatsoever. At the end of the day, it really is down to whatever suits you and your baby, in my opinion, and I'm a big believer in the "happy mummy, happy baby" thing. Nonetheless, I'm absolutely sure breast is best for the baby and do have occasional guilt trips about not having done so for DD2.

haven't read all here..

The most important thing is that a baby is fed, and how that is done depends on individual circumstances.
I breast fed literally for years!! and loved giving what I thought was the best start for my children and fitted in with our lives most of the time, but am aware of how much pressure is on those who find it difficult or who are unsupported, and want or need to ff.
There are many cultures who successfully mix feed without having apparent problems with milk supply, it all seems to adapt. There are women who have no opportunity to breastfeed, as to do so would put their child's health at risk.

Tiktok - I wasn't trying to kick things off - maybe I should clarify that the people in question were HVs, midwives and NCT teachers who were all adamant that this was the only way and refused to help to give me any other options at all while I was pg or an early days mother. I will endeavour to post in a less inflammatory manner.

I changed from bf to FF wiht es when he was about 4 month old...bf worked wonderful, I really was lucky, but my ds was a happy chucker and the HP's adviced me to stop bf and switch to Formula...I enver thought of looking furthere into it, going to a library and read up or anything, just took the advice as face value....well...the change of course didn't aprove his chucking up one bit...if anyhting it prolonged the problem...of course it could have been a coincidence...but my es still chucked up when he was like 18 month old and had been walking for many month.
DS2 was switched to Formula when he started biting aged 10 month+ and nothing I tried worked...wasn't happy about the swap, as wanted to do extendet bf...incidently with him I had lots of probs bf...but I was well informed, and I also knew that I had found making up bottles a real pita with es...
Ys never got any Formula at all...
Ms, and ys both also had been happy chuckers but got better at the 6 month mark and stopped puking up all the time by the time they were 8-9 month old....so, really do wonder if es would have been the same, if not for the Formula he was getting

So, with es it was definately that I just didn't know enough about it, and I also didn't have any strong feelings about breastfeeding, I have got to admit at that time I felt it was as good as eachother, and as everyone else bottlefed around me, I really didn't think about it, then...but in the end it was lack of proper and knowledgable support...I was never ever advised about my to fast let down, was never given any info at all about reflux of any kind, I was jsut told I had to put up wiht it or change to Formula....but that was 10 1/2 years ago...

sniper, thanks for explanation. NCT teachers (by that do you mean breastfeeding counsellors?) are not trained to educate mothers about the 'how to' of formula feeding; however, they should not be 'adamant there is no other way'....I don't recognise that as a feature of being a bfc. After all, the reason there are bfcs is that we recognise the problems and challenges women have to breastfeed, and how 'normal' it is not to breastfeed!

Same reason as sandcastles: tiny baby, wouldn't latch, no support, didn't know what the hell I was doing and thought baby would die if I didn't give bottle (tried with syringe first, could get almost nothing in her). And maybe she would have. Expressing never gave me more than 1/3 of daily feed.