Not being controversial honestly but I'm interested.....

[Manictigger]

...in the different reasons why people use formula whether it's by choice or due to circumstances. I've been bf for 7 months now and I do it a) for peace of mind (there's a history of allergies on DH's side and I would feel so guilty if later down the line lo developed an allergy and I know that I chose not to do something that might have prevented it from happening) Also, lo was born underweight so I felt she needed all the help she could get in life (but those are reasons personal to me). Anyway, b) I'm a lazy cow and would find all that bottle malarkay a faff (even at my lowest, most exhausted point with thrush the idea of dragging my carcass downstairs to make up a bottle sounded like an even worse horrendous nightmare) In fact in a way, I think bottle feeders should be given credit for putting in the effort which a lazy cow like me is unwilling to do.

So like I say, I'm interested in whether people always intended to use formula or whether they had to because bfing went wrong (and whether those people felt they were given the support they needed)and whether formula feeders (whatever their circumstances) think it's right that bf is actively promoted in the NHS. FWIW, I think it's right that bf is promoted by the NHS because according to one survey, a sizeable number of women believe that formula is just as good as bm which as mature MNers we know it isn't but equally I think the NHS is wrong to push that message without also acknowledging that most women will initially have problems and without providing good support for such women.

Anyway, like I say, I'm genuinely interested in seeing the other side of the ff/bf debate because usually it all descends into a playground fight which helps no-one and creates more divisions and prejudice.

So PLAY NICELY

(actually feel a bit guilty because I'm off to plant potatoes now but I will return at some stage)

[yellowrose]

to be fair to moondog, sometimes she puts her foot in it by saying things a bit too literally, i don't think she is trying to be deliberately nasty though lol

[yellowrose]

oh good kk about you not getting offended - - so sorry about your dd's reflux, a friend's baby had undiagnosed reflux for months too -

[tiktok]

It's heartwarming and to get these lovely comments.

Every time I say something good about breastfeeding, or encourage someone, or give someone facts about it, or indeed facts about formula, there's a risk someone who isn't bf will think I am judging them for giving formula. That's because, truth be told, the facts about infant feeding take no account of people's individual or even emotional circumstances, and because understandably, people are sensitive about these issues.

I suppose I am asking people like jj or sunnyjim to accept that most people who are aware of the sensitive nature of the whole bloody thing are equally aware that judging people is a no-no, and we just don't do it.

If someone has the 'feeling' I am judging (which is what someone said downthread) then I can't help it! That feeling comes from them, not from me. I think very carefully when I post here, and maybe I have slipped up the odd time in the last however many years, but that's not because somehow deep down I am really judging and only pretend I'm not!

I do, however, judge people who pontificate from a place of ignorance - they know who they are (no one on this thread so far, though )

Those people can go and do something very rude.

[mytwocents]

Good point jacks, just what i was thinking earlier, apart from facts about the content of bm, surely all other pros benefits gains etc are personal, individual issues.
And big thankyou to tiktok for clear, articulate, advice and help. I've already learnt loads from mn about feeding and not even had my baby yet! Good to know you'll be around in the next few months xxx

[staceym11]

ok have spent an hour reading the whole thread and am pleased it hasnt turned into a mud slinging match yet. It's great to hear both sides.

with dd, she never latched properly, not even onto a bottle, she never got anything out my breast and i was told to ff by hospital staff, at 17 and rather naive i did as i was told. however she is a happy healthy and if i do say so myself intelligent 2.6 yo with no allergies, i do not regret my decision although do feel i was slightly pressured into it.

with ds he latched perfectly, and fed fine for 24hrs, but i was convinced he had feeding problems and was not getting enough milk, the mws would not believe me, so i put him on formula and lo and behold he was not eating properly, ended up in nnu, nearly had to be tube fed but i managed to avoid that by waking every hour to feed him etc etc etc. he became quite severly jaundiced while he wasnt feeding well which cleared up once he started feeding better. i know that eventually the mws would have realised he wasn't feeding properly but when, 10 days later when they next weighed him?! when his jaundice got really serious?!

i knew my babies and did what was best, i do not feel guilty although i do wish it had worked as i feel i owuld have enjoyed it, but it didnt and im comfortable with that.

i do also think breastfeeding should be promoted and a lot more support is needed for it, but on the same level if it is not an option/possible for any reason there should also be support for ff, which is by no means just shoving a bottle in a babies mouth!

i hope this continues to be a well mannered thread as it is a brilliant subject! thanks to the op!

[LucyJu]

Just wanted to add that I think it is very unfair to say that Tiktok is not supportive of formula-feeding mothers; from what I have seen on this site, you couldn't be further from the truth. I also think she goes out of her way not to make judgements about mothers based on their feeding choices.

This "pros" versus "benefits" argument...
I think the point she is making is that "pros" are subjective... you might think it is great that other people can feed your baby for example; other people might see this as a bad thing and enjoy the exclusive nature of breastfeeding.

The "benefits" are objective... at least, I can't see that anyone is going to argue that there is anything bad abot something like "reduced risk of asthma".

As for the comment (much further down) about "lies, damned lies and statistics".... one way of assessing the likely validity of a set if statistics is to see who is publishing them, and what they have to gain. If an infant formula company were able to find some statistical evidence that formula was superior to breastmilk in some way, do you not think that they would be falling over themselves to publicise such statistics? What does the lack of such publicity tell you?

[Botbot]

Firstly, inverted nipples. Also, and I know this sounds like a silly excuse, but dd was born during last summer's heatwave so nipples were even more reluctant to spring into action, as it were.

In addition to this, no proper support in hospital - mainly just comments about what a useless shape my nipples were. So dd failed to latch on. Three days later she still hadn't managed it, so (very reluctantly) agreed to a formula feed.

So - nipple confusion. Two weeks of attempting to put dd on breast, with frenzied screaming (her, not me) every time. Attended a breastfeeding clinic with health visitor support and on one occasion dd successfully fed for about three minutes ? but never did it again. So had to resort to bottles. Expressed milk but only managed a bottle a day, but at least she got that for the first six weeks. Using the breastpump sorted out the inverted nipple issue, but dd still couldn't manage to latch on.

Phoned NCT breastfeeding helpline 10 times a day for a week, but each time got passed to an answering machine that wasn't accepting messages.

I was absolutely distraught about not being able to breastfeed and am still upset now about it (dd is 9 months). It upset me so much to hear people say 'anyone can breastfeed ? you just have to keep trying' and 'it was painful but I carried on through the pain and it was all OK'. I didn't even get to the point where it could get painful.

Was also dismayed at the lack of information on bottlefeeding available, which upset me even more and made me feel like such an enormous failure. I wholeheartedly agree that breast is best, and I intend to try again with the next baby, but it would have been nice to have some facts about it that didn't seem to scream hysterically 'you are poisoning your child!', which is how it appeared to me at the time.

Oops - have rambled on a bit there...

[tiktok]

Botbot - if you called the NCT bf line last August, then it was at a terrible time for the line. We were totally overwhelmed by calls - I am really sorry you felt let down.

The trouble with a volunteer led helpline like this is that there is very little slack in the system. People's kids get ill, people go on holiday, people's phones stop working....and in August 2006, everything happened at once.

Even now, most people who phone will not get straight through, but if you leave a message you will always get a call back (except on the odd occasion something goes wrong eg the mum doesn't leave the right phone no, or she mumbles a bit when she gives it!!).

[Botbot]

Tiktok,

Yes, it was August. Thanks for your message, and I hope you didn't think I was trying to blame the NCT or anything. You never know, I might give you a call when the next baby comes along!

[mistypeaks]

I wanted desperately to bf both of my daughters. I managed 4 weeks with my first. Everytime I fed her I got this feeling (no conviction) that I was doing something wrong and that my milk was bad. I would check her when she was sleeping convinced I'd poisoned her, and when she was awake I was convinced she was just 'saying goodbye' I stopped bf and things calmed down somewhat. 13 months later dd2 arrives and I try bf again with a more relaxed attitude knowing that ff was available and ok. The same feelings of misery and tearfulness started to creep up so I stopped there and then. No-one knows anything of this, and this is the first time I've mentioned it so this is quite a cathartic experience for me. BF is best for babies, but sadly not always for mums.

[hercules1]

mistypeaks - your post just goes to show how many emotions are tied up in feeding a child.

[mistypeaks]

It is an emotional subject which is why I hope it doesn't degenerate. If anyone was reading it feeling as bad as I was only to be made to feel worse . . . .

[tiktok]

Aw, misty, I am so sad for you. You are not unique. Once or twice I have had mothers tell me the same thing, and it's been linked in those cases with postnatal depression, and there are a few instances in the literature about it - there is a theory that some women are very, very sensitive to the hormonal effect of breastfeeding, and that this produces the tearfulness, which in your case your mind then rationalised by thinking things about 'bad milk'.

If you become pg again, it would be worth exploring some psychotherapeutic options, so even if it is hormonal, you have some strategies to overcome it.

[yellowrose]

misty - that sounds like a very very difficult thing to have been through and i honestly don't think any one of us truely understands other people's lives, we can all just read and listen and sympathise, so i am glad that mn gives a forum for everyone to pour their hearts out and that is very important. i hope it is helping you

[mistypeaks]

tik tok you may be my saviour here. I always wondered if there was a link to pnd but am too scared to ask anyone about it. Even tho dd2 is 8 months now I'm still a little 'wobbly' shall we say at times. I do often wonder do I have pnd? Am I just stressed? How on earth do hv's/gp's tell the difference? Anyway I'm totally hijacking this thread.

[Daisybump]

tiktok...as I said earlier, i am pro-choice on this issue, but as a hypothetical situation, if I came to you, distressed and at my wits end because nothing i had tried was working (and when I went through this, my HV suggestion to change positions only made the whole cracked and bleeding nipple thing happen again) and in serious danger of harming my LO out of sheer frustration, what would your advice be? I would love to BF the LO I am expecting now exclusively for as long as possible, but obviously scared of things going badly again. As a parent who's husband is away four nights a week, 200 miles away from my closest family, and coping with a boisterous five year old t boot....what's my best strategy for making this thing work this time around?

[yellowrose]

misty - i am not an expert on pnd - but yes from what i have read pnd can last for much longer after birth than most of us realise - some women can be depressed for years - it might be a good idea to have a preliminary chat with a gp who won't be judgemental on this in any way and possiblily get some counselling.

[moondog]

Quick break from tedious essay on self-control issues....

Sorry about the flippant bottle feeding comment.
You are quite right,it wasn't warranted.

Realise there is a whole lot more to it than just ramming it in.

I was trying (not very well) to make the point that there is less skilled help available for breastfeeding on the whole.
In most cases (not all) bottle feeding is not too dificult to do which I'm sure is one of the reasons for its dominance.

[tiktok]

misty, I agree with YR. There are clinical signs for depression, as opposed to stress, and there is a difference (though people can be stressed and depressed at the same time). An HV or a GP would be good to speak to.

Daisy - the role of a breastfeeding counsellor would be to listen and to help you find something you feel comfortable with. For your situation at the moment, talking to other bf mothers, getting a support group lined up, maybe being honest with your HV (if it's the same one) and telling her she didn't help...all of that will be some of the groundwork!

Being scared of stuff going wrong with bf is horrible. It's got to be one of the most sad reasons for ff, when what you really want to do is to bf, but so much you can't bear the idea of it not working

I hope it goes better this time.

[yellowrose]

moondog - that is quite funny in the context of this thread that you are doing an essay on "self-control" lol

[moondog]

The irony is not lost on me at all YR
Back to dear old B.F. Skinner........zzzzz

[sassy]

HIjack, scuse me Tiktok, could you please pop over to bumperlicious's thread about helping a 1st time mum to bf? I've posted some stuff but I'm sure you have much better advice than me.Ta>>>

[Daisybump]

I've moved since then so thankfully it won't be the same one. I'm in Leeds where there are several BF cafes, the first of which was set up by my MW, so hopefully I'll be able to get the support I need. My big sis did her best the last time, but as she was still feeding her DS at the time, every time she held my DS he got really frustrated as he could smell her BM. I actually said to her at one point (in only a half jokey sense as I was so frustrated and depressed by it all) "Go ahead, and give him back when he's done". Her look was one of definate