Not being controversial honestly but I'm interested.....

[Manictigger]

...in the different reasons why people use formula whether it's by choice or due to circumstances. I've been bf for 7 months now and I do it a) for peace of mind (there's a history of allergies on DH's side and I would feel so guilty if later down the line lo developed an allergy and I know that I chose not to do something that might have prevented it from happening) Also, lo was born underweight so I felt she needed all the help she could get in life (but those are reasons personal to me). Anyway, b) I'm a lazy cow and would find all that bottle malarkay a faff (even at my lowest, most exhausted point with thrush the idea of dragging my carcass downstairs to make up a bottle sounded like an even worse horrendous nightmare) In fact in a way, I think bottle feeders should be given credit for putting in the effort which a lazy cow like me is unwilling to do.

So like I say, I'm interested in whether people always intended to use formula or whether they had to because bfing went wrong (and whether those people felt they were given the support they needed)and whether formula feeders (whatever their circumstances) think it's right that bf is actively promoted in the NHS. FWIW, I think it's right that bf is promoted by the NHS because according to one survey, a sizeable number of women believe that formula is just as good as bm which as mature MNers we know it isn't but equally I think the NHS is wrong to push that message without also acknowledging that most women will initially have problems and without providing good support for such women.

Anyway, like I say, I'm genuinely interested in seeing the other side of the ff/bf debate because usually it all descends into a playground fight which helps no-one and creates more divisions and prejudice.

So PLAY NICELY

(actually feel a bit guilty because I'm off to plant potatoes now but I will return at some stage)

Actually I'm wondering whether to start another thread on mother's guilt generally. Perhaps MN should have a 'confessional box' topic where people could confess guilt about both serious and non-serious issues (or have they and I just haven't found it?)

I'd kick off with... I feel guilty because I just danced round the room to the Scissor Sisters and made my lo sick (that's a mix of serious and non-serious I think)

apeainapod - take your hands out of your pockets and sit up straight, young lady

Me next. And mine is serious! To celebrate me having a wonderful interview for my current position, DH and I and some friends smoked something. Found out four days later that I was pregnant. Am I going to be arrested now?

Oh er... didn't anticipate us veering into guilty as in having broken the law (or do you mean guilty as in having potentially harmed your unborn child - maybe Tiktok can answer that?)

Pleeeease don't anyone confess to having murdered someone and buried them under the patio or we may get MN shut down

Ok - shall I start another thread for that????

Please!!!!!

(I'd like to maintain the brawlfree status of this thread)

Did you start a new thread? Where???

Just thought I would add my thoughts to this thread - I confess I haven't read it all but wanted to get this off my chest for a long time.

I have arthritis and was unable to bf my daughter who is now 3 1/2 months because of my medication. I could have come off my meds but chances are my joints would have become so stiff and painful I would have been unable to pick her up let alone feed her. I spent a long time making the decision to formula feed despite this and have felt very sad about it ever since. I would have loved to have breastfed my baby - particularly since there is a family history of eczema and asthma.

Since choosing to formula feed I have encountered so much negativity from midwives, health visitors and other mums who have made me feel guilty about not breastfeeding - only those closest to me really know how ill I would be without my medication and I find it difficult to explain that although I appear healthy really I wouldn't be without the drugs. Whilst in the maternity unit a midwife and bf counsellor lectured me on not bf for about 1/2hr just hours after my daughter was born. I hadn't slept for 3 days and was emotionally charged and exhausted like every new mum. They reduced me to tears before I could explain why I wasn't feeding my daughter myself.

It is refreshing to see a discussion on bf and bottle-feeding where people have openly shared their stories without any rows and I have shared mine just to say that sometimes it isn't always a clear cut decision not to bf. I would have loved to have done it even for a short time and I have the utmost respect and admiration for people who do bf their children, but I also have great empathy for those who can't - bottlefeeding can be a rocky ride for very different reasons.

Oh, lennie, I'm so sorry for you. Probably everyone here has been made to cry in the early days by someone insensitive at some part of the process - in the first few days I was driven to rage I couldn't believe possible by a maternity nurse who told me my car seat setting was risking my baby's life, but if I was okay with that she couldn't stop me - it was actually her insisted setting (straps above shoulders) that would have been dangerous, but she kept saying she'd been on TWO car seat courses and there was no doubt about it. It's still annoying, and my husband has to gently take the car seat instructions away from me sometimes, but the anger and hurt lessen. Giving birth brings out our rawest emotions, and I'm sure they'd have been horrified if they knew how insensitive they were being to you, and I promise you will feel less and less bad about this.

Thanks macneil

I have kust read right through this thread and it's nice to read such a well-balanced and informative debate on such a highly-charged subject.
I desperately wanted to bf ds but it just didn't work out. My milk wouldn't come in and a mw in the hospital had me trying to hand express for 2 hours - I got nothing, She was so shocked, she said I was doing it wrong as it wasn't possible to get no milk out. You can imagine how that made me feel. I persevered when I got home but ds lost a lot of weight and his jaundice was getting worse. Eventually I gave in and gave him ff - the difference was amazing. His jaundice disappeared, he put weight on and seemed a much happier baby. Although bf was my first choice, it just didn't work for me.
I now have 5 weeks to go until my next baby is due and I am not remotely interested in bf this one. I do feel as though my idea of it as a concept has been tarnished by the 'professionals' I encountered last time and the support wasn't good. I have recently been tld that hospitals no longer provide milk for new babies and many don't even provide sterilising facilities if you bring your own. I find this very disturbing as it is completely taking away a mother's right to choose how to feed her baby. I understand their need to promote bf but taking away a person's choice is just completely wrong.

AbbyLou - another tale of poor support

Hand expressing for 2 hours...oh dear.

I don't know what the underlying problem was, but it was clear bf was not working for you, and someone should have tried to get to bottom of it instead of putting pressure on you.

A very maternity units do not provide formula milk and ask you to bring your own in, and your own sterilising unit. This does not take away your choice to formula feed, though - I don't understand why you said this, as you are still able to choose to formula feed.

Sorry I didn't make my self very clear there. I know it doesn't actually take away your choice as such but makes it very difficult for you to make a decision that is not the one they want you to make. I have absolutely no problem with taking in my own milk etc but was told by a friend who lives in another part of the country that she had to ask her dh to go home and sterilise bottles for her lo as they were not allowed to take electrical equipment into the hospital. This will probably sound really thcik but is there another way of sterilising without using a steriliser that you plug in? I know you can use Milton or similar but I don't think that would be practical either.
I'm so torn over this because despite wanting to be all strong and heroic about making my own decision I still feel like maybe I should give the bf a go again this time.

AbbeyLou, I think you can buy ready-sterilised bottles that you use once. I'll see if I can find a link for you

Something like this but you'd probably need a slow flow.

Yes, I agree, a great thread !

whether people always intended to use formula
I wanted to bottle feed all through pregnancy, but I was put under enourmous pressure to breastfeed. See my comments below on how this was done and why I think it is wrong!

whether they had to because bfing went wrong
I BF for 5 days exclusivly, and then weaned DS onto formula. went wrong? I HATED every mintue of it, DS was losing weight, I was in constant pain and he was drinking blood.
Call me mental but I didn't want my only memories of his first days to be of pain and hatred. I had hallucinations about him trying to eat me alive and couldn't stand to have him near me. And before anyone patronises me by saying it was PND - it wasn't! It was a perfectly normal reaction to something that is causing you pain and misery to dread having it happen again.

(and whether those people felt they were given the support they needed)
No,

I was givne NO support at all to formula feed - bet that suprised you all? I have a vivid memory of crying ym eyes out, Ds crying with hunger and me digging my nails into my hand so ahrd my palm bled cos of the pain, trying to say to the MW - I want to stop. And she wrote down that BFing was going fine. They refused to discuss formula feeding, refused to discuss sterlisation and actually refused to revisit the next day when I said I had given him formula.

and whether formula feeders (whatever their circumstances) think it's right that bf is actively promoted in the NHS.
NO, why is it 'right' to tell people what to do with their bodies? The propoganda is incredible for BFing, if I took DS to a cafe it would have a lovely 'pro BFing' sign but no sign telling me I could bottle feed my child.
I left a NHS mums group because on month 2 I was asked to stand up and epxlain why I had choosen to bottlefeed - none of the BFing mums were asked to defend their position!
Alot of the propoganda is wrong - I'm not quibbling the health stuff here (although I could - lies damn lies and statistics); I'm talking about the "mums who bottle feed prop their babies up in front of the TV" (we dont') "breastfeeding is a unique bonding experience" (no its not, every bond is unique and saying BFing is unique implies FFing doesn't allow you to bond) etc etc. "BFing is best for baby" (only if baby is thriving and has a mum who is okay with it all)

phew, sorry that might not have been playing nice but I had a year of real from MW and other mums so I feel the need to stick up for people who FF

hiya, I keep popping in and out of this thread! Am glad its stayed v reasonable & friendly!

I think its all well and good to promote bf but where I am, they are so insistent about how everyone can do it and there isn't a problem that can't be solved that when you do hit a problem like I did and had to stop trying to bf you just feel like a complete and utter failure!

I think the promotion of bf needs to be more balanced so that problems and solutions are discussed along with advice and information about ff, then perhaps more mothers (esp 1st time mothers) don't feel like total failures when the baby is just 2 days old! Plus it would feel like you had a bit more of a choice instead of feeling like one was being forced upon you (or is that just me?)

Arghhh... just typed a huge rant of a post, which then mysteriously disappeared when I tried to submit it... the long and short of it being about resorting to FFing after a hugely traumatic delivery, prem baby, being neglected for hours and hours in the PN ward with a hungry, crying baby and unable to pick him up even, as in such a bad way myself; crying myself sick for hours with guilt and shame, being told I was breaching DS's human rights by considering FFing; and finally the feeling of joy and relief at being able to feed him at last, with formula, and not caring at that stage how he was being fed, just that he was finally getting something. Absolutely support the promotion of BFing but very angry and upset indeed at mine and others' experiences and treatment at the hands of the NHS.

I haven't time to read the thread so I've only read the OP at the moment.

For me, the only "choice" when it came to using formula was the choice to struggle on making myself and DS extremely unhappy or to introduce some formula to give myself a break and enable me to form a relationship with DS. When every single breastfeed was a struggle and extremely painful for the whole 4.5 months I was breastfeeding, there was really no choice in the end.

Anyone who breastfeeds and describes themselves as too lazy to formula feed demonstrates that they cannot possibly comment on the reasons why women may resort to formula. For me, bottle feeding was a million times easier than breastfeeding.

As I said though, I did soldier on with some breastfeeding for 4.5 months. My main reason for this was reading that ff babies are more susceptible to SIDS. As the biggest risk is between 2-4 months, I set myself 4 months as my target and actually exceeded it. It was DS getting a cold and refusing the breast completely that finally put paid to the breastfeeding.

I found out at 5 months that DS had tongue-tie which hadn't been picked up by any other professionals, including the NCT BFC. So in light of that I would say, yes there was a lack of support. Although I understand the hospital had a policy not to snip tongue ties anyway so perhaps it's better I didn't know.

For me the absolute biggest insult that anyone can give wrt formula feeding is that it is a "choice". Maybe it is for some women, but when yours and your baby's health is at stake, there really is no choice.

I absolutely believe that the NHS should be promoting breastfeeding, but it needs to be done in a realistic way which makes women aware that it isn't all plain sailing. It also needs to be backed up by proper support - for example, refusing to snip a tongue tie for a baby who is unable to breastfeed properly is not sending the right message I don't think.

I could go on and on, and if I had time I would have formulated a much more considered response. However if you're interested I have posted frequently on the subject, under my more usual name of Twinklemegan.

Oh, I must just add as well that I went through emotional hell during the time I was struggling to breastfeed. I became absolutely fixated on that SIDS statistic and I truly convinced myself that if my DS didn't get breastmilk during the night that he could die. It was a dark, dark place, made much lighter when I accepted mixed feeding as the solution. My HV was wonderfully supportive by the way and full of praise for my determination.

Actually, twinkle, though all your points are valid (the lack of understanding towards women who desperately want to breastfeed, the poor training given to healthcare professionals, the courage some women display in continuining with something that's painful and unrewarding for the sake of their babies), I think in your individual case you were let down on that one crucial point - failure to recognise tongue tie.

The NCT BFC (a volunteer) should have at least considered it and asked you to get a professional opinion on it, and even if your local hospital doesn't snip, you could have gone somewhere else for it to be done (and you would probably have been prepared to do this, hearing your motivation and commitment). NICE guidelines recognise tongue tie, so it is no longer the outlandish idea it used to be

In those 4-5 months you must have seen half a dozen or more people whose paid job it is (or should be) to enable you to breastfeed comfortably and effectively; it is a real shame no one seemed to know that tongue tie is always worth considering in cases of persistent pain on feeding

When I had dd1 I was undecided whether to try bf or not, she was born by c-section after 36 hours in labour. Because the epidural given to me before the c-section didn't work properly I was given morphine to help ease the pain, when she was born I wasn't able to hold her straight away as I was still in agony as they stiched me up. After the c-section DH fed dd1 some formula, I couldn't bf at this stage as my milk hadn't come through, my intention at this point was to try to bf the next day, that night I was in a ward with 3 other women, dd1 slept for 6 hours after her ff and the other babies were constantly waking during the night, I decided to continue ff. When I left the hosiptal I was happy and relaxed, I was getting 6 hours sleep a night. When I had dd2 she was also ff, I made the decision not to bf while I was pregnant. A few weeks after dd1 was born I visited a friend who also had a young baby, she was bf and was absolutely exhausted, she was so tired that she felt guilty that she spent no quality time playing with her baby. My reasons may be considered selfish, but I believe that because I was happy and relaxed my baby has happy.

kslatts, no one could be anything less than pleased for you that you and your baby were suited and you felt comfortable with what happened.

But for someone else, what happened might not have led to them being quite so happy.

Your choice to breastfeed was to some extent reduced....no one should have advised your dh to give formula because your milk 'hadn't come through'. No one's milk comes through that soon. You could have been helped to put your baby to the breast, and it should have been explained to you that doing so would have helped preserve your choice to breastfeed. Leaving it to the next day is not a good idea. The baby needs colostrum, and early feeding helps the milk come in.

This is not a criticism of you at all - just a comment on the way the maternity services fail to give women the full picture.