Not being controversial honestly but I'm interested.....

[Manictigger]

...in the different reasons why people use formula whether it's by choice or due to circumstances. I've been bf for 7 months now and I do it a) for peace of mind (there's a history of allergies on DH's side and I would feel so guilty if later down the line lo developed an allergy and I know that I chose not to do something that might have prevented it from happening) Also, lo was born underweight so I felt she needed all the help she could get in life (but those are reasons personal to me). Anyway, b) I'm a lazy cow and would find all that bottle malarkay a faff (even at my lowest, most exhausted point with thrush the idea of dragging my carcass downstairs to make up a bottle sounded like an even worse horrendous nightmare) In fact in a way, I think bottle feeders should be given credit for putting in the effort which a lazy cow like me is unwilling to do.

So like I say, I'm interested in whether people always intended to use formula or whether they had to because bfing went wrong (and whether those people felt they were given the support they needed)and whether formula feeders (whatever their circumstances) think it's right that bf is actively promoted in the NHS. FWIW, I think it's right that bf is promoted by the NHS because according to one survey, a sizeable number of women believe that formula is just as good as bm which as mature MNers we know it isn't but equally I think the NHS is wrong to push that message without also acknowledging that most women will initially have problems and without providing good support for such women.

Anyway, like I say, I'm genuinely interested in seeing the other side of the ff/bf debate because usually it all descends into a playground fight which helps no-one and creates more divisions and prejudice.

So PLAY NICELY

(actually feel a bit guilty because I'm off to plant potatoes now but I will return at some stage)

[staceym11]

moondog, i can now see from your explaination you were not trying to degrade all us formula feeders, but at the time it seemed rather judgemental, but yet formula feeding to all intents and purposes is a lot easier than breast feeding, but there can still be many problems!

[yellowrose]

daisy - may i butt in as someone who got crap support after ds was born and say that studies show that mums who actively seek out and ask for support and help to bf are far more successful in kick starting bf.

i am not saying of course that you haven't done this already, but i highly recommend getting as much info. NOW as you can, do you have a La leche League (LLL) or Baby Cafe nearby ? any Sure Start schemes ? also have all the main volunteer nos. at hand. Apart from NCT there are several others, e.g. LLL and BFN. May be a hospital drop in session ? Some hospitals have these weekly.


The helplines can get jammed and not enough volunteers available when we need them (there are not enough of them, bless them) plus factor in all the incorrect/unhelpful info. one gets in hospitals and from visiting mw/hv post birth which can all lead to getting distressed and feeling alone. You can avoid this by asking for help early on.

also read kellymom.com. it is factual and scientific, it will bust all the common myths re. bf and reassure you constantly.

[sunnyjim]

"That breast milk as a substance is more beneficial to the baby than formula is a given, and that is an absolute, objective statement that has nothing to do with personal cicumstances etc. BUT surely EVERY other aspect of feeding, and there are loads, must by definition be considered on a purely personal level: mother's physical and mental wellbeing, involvement of other family members, baby's needs and preferences (in a wider sense than purely in relation to the contents of the milk) etc. So, milk contents aside (and yes I do acknoledge that milk content IS of fundamental importance, but it's not the only thing to consider), whether we are discussing BF or FF, we can surely ONLY deal in "personal" pros or benefits (whichever word we choose to use). To imply that FF benefits are purely personal whereas BF benefits are absolute and across-the-board, doesn't seem to make sense to me... "

very well put, yes apart from the antibodies issue EVERY other point is very relative. So if we can't say that FFing means you don't have to get up and do the 3am feed (cos some women like doing that or don't have anyone else to help out) then we can't say that BFing at the end of a day is a good way to lose weight (some women me inlcuded didn't want to or need to lose weight post baby)

[yellowrose]

daisy - sorry cross posted !

[LucyJu]

Sunnyjim - if you want to start debating the relative merits of infant formula versus breastfeeding, I think you should start a new thread. I don't think the OP wanted this to degenerate into a BF/FF debate; she just wanted to know what made people decide to formula feed.

[sunnyjim]

misty hugs

that must have been very hard for you - I guess one of the reasons I fight so hard about this is that I do know something about Psychology and depression, and the negative and longlasting effects depression, emotional or mental trauma can have on a family.

The effects of a depressed parent on a baby or child cannot be underestimated.

On the other thread someoen said I wasn't qualified to write a leaflet. Maybe I'm not -although i'd just reiterate that I'm not actually planning on handing this out!
Likewise HV, MW NCT and la leche league workers and vols are not qualified to discuss emotional and mental issues with people, it is very wrong for them to encourage you to continue in a course of action which could damge your mental health.

(and it does happen - it happened to me)

[tiktok]

sunnyjim - of course midwives and HVs are qualified to discuss emotional and mental health issues with women, and actually, so are NCT bfcs - we (NCT bfcs) can discuss, though of course we cannot diagnose, but we listen and we support. We never encourage someone to continue doing something that damages their mental health - if this has happened to you, then complain.That would be outside the boundaries of a volunteer. We may not know the mother is actually depressed though - it's up to the mother to share this with us. We would ask her what she wants to do about feeding.


However, sometimes mothers who are depressed and who share this with us will talk to us about her feelings about breastfeeding and giving up, and if the mother says she wants to continue, then we will help her with information to do that. We are certainly not qualified to tell her to stop because we think it might be damaging her mental health - we never 'tell' anyone to do anything. We are mother led.

I hope this explains things.

[tiktok]

And sunnyjm, misty does not say anyone encouraged her to do something that went against her mental health - I can't see where she says this. On the contrary, she never told anyone her feelings.

[Manictigger]

Sunnyjim - I actually agree with you about the weight issue thing partly because it needs a few ifs after it (eg 'if' you eat no more than you used to, 'if' as an exhausted sleep-deprived mum you always make time for proper meals and don't end up eating massive amounts of choc etc.) and partly because it assumes we all want to lose weight (in the same way that we women are all supposedly obsessed with shoes). People have started telling me I've lost too much weight (not intentionally I might add so don't all scream at me ) and so I'm actually starting to find it to be a disadvantage of bf.

[Manictigger]

And Lucyju, thanks, you're right, I'm really glad this thread has stayed good-natured and (without getting too much up my own arse) I think the factsheet thread is prob a better place to discuss the relative merits of ff and bf purely because this one seems to be more about people's personal experiences rather than 'facts'.

[Olihan]

Thanks tiktok, I'll add it to my favourites just in case!

Would also like to say that I know I wouldn't still be bfing ds2 if it wasn't for all tiktok's advice, both to me personally, and in the archives. Moondog was also great when I was having a crisis (or 3) so I am completely indebted to both of them.

[yellowrose]

i agree it would be very wrong for anyone who is qualified to say to a woman she MUST continue bf no matter how it makes the mother feel, i.e. there are women who have said here on MN that they feel "physically repulsed" by bf, etc., in which case even as a non-health prof. (say if they were my friend) i would say that they should seek prof. counselling/therapy, etc., i still wouldn't automatically ASSUME that their problem lies with the act of bf, they may have issues with other underlying things that only a therapist would understand

also an enormous no. of women both on MN and among friends and family have told me that they felt depressed AFTER they gave up bf, in which case one would want to look at this as a serious issue

i know for a fact that i became very very depressed a few days after ds was born (because he wouldn't latch) and had i not received some help and support through dh, friends, the internet, etc i would have descended into a far greater depression if i had given up bf, so bf actually became my saviour (it may have been very different for another mother, i appreciate that) - bf does release "happy" hormones which seem to work for SOME women

so bf or ff can have a different sort of impact on different women and i agree with what others have said that unless the mother ASKS and TALKS about her depression, no one will really know about it (apart from say perhaps your dh or your mother because they know you well and are very close to you), but most friends may not pick up on it and certainly a bfc would not necessarily pick up on it

[Twinmummyx2]

Hi all, just wanted to share my experinces of breast feeding and bottle feeding with you.

I have 8 children, 4 singles and 2 sets of twins.

I decided to bottle feed my first 3 because i was worried about having to get my boobs out in public-dozey i know, i was very young and didnt have the maternal instinct to want to try and breast-feed my babies until about a week after they were born...by which time i think it might have been too late to try.

When pregnant with my 4th i put on my birth plan that i wanted to breast-feed....anyways it was a horrendous birth. midwife came in a while after and said...'right you want to breast-feed'..and before i could actually think about it again she had put him on my boob. I am so glad she did.....i would have said no if i had the time but it was the best thing ever. No probs and i breast-fed him for just over a year......
I found it a lot easier for night feeds etc...and apart from him having aspergers and migraines...he is very healthy compared to my others as far as colds, coughs, ear infections go.... he hasn't had anything like that....

I tried to breast-feed my twins for just under a week but i didnt have enough milk and they ended up sicking blood up from it where my boobs had got so sore, so i gave up.
I didn't try with my next set of twins as i felt really disappointed about not being able to feed my first set and didn't want to go through it again.

It is a very personal decision to make and my other babies did thrive on formula milk in every way.

So to anyone who isn't sure...try breast-feeding if you can....i am so glad i did.x

[Twinklemegan]

Misty and Tiktok - wow, it is amazing to have seen you both say this about sensitivity to the hormonal effects of breastfeeding. I'm so sorry you had to go through it Misty. I have always had very bad reactions to the normal female hormonal fluctuations and I was very suspicious that breastfeeding was doing strange things to me (in the sense of completely wiping me out both physically and emotionally).I couldn't find anything written about it at all though so I thought I was going mad. I wish I could explain how I know it wasn't just post-birth hormones/exhaustion. Tiktok - do you have any references to this?

BTW Tiktok, thank you for the kind things you said earlier in the thread. To be honest I was at the thought of someone thinking me a martyr, as I have always felt I maybe gave up too easily (but then I remember how bad it was).

[genlay]

Haven't read the whole thread but just wanted to say I breastfed for about 4 months in agony the whole time (give me the pain of labour any day) Apparently we were doing it correctly but my nipples have never recovered.
I desperately wanted to bf but ended up ff. I found that there was not much support in my area for bf mums and my decision came with a lot of guilt, embarrassment and feelings of failure. Still is a bit of an emotional subject for me. If I had my time over I would probably pump like you did kamikayzed.
When I talk friend now who are ff (especially those who wanted to bf) I try to sympathize and tell them what a great job they are doing, and, never criticize because I don't want anyone to feel the way I did. When I'm talking to my friends who have successfully bf I try to encourage them and tell them how proud they should be for the difficult job they are doing so well.

I'm sure others feel differently which is why these discussions are always so heated but I really feel that everyone is just trying to do he best they can therefore education and support for all choices is the key not vilifying people.