Not being controversial honestly but I'm interested.....

[Manictigger]

...in the different reasons why people use formula whether it's by choice or due to circumstances. I've been bf for 7 months now and I do it a) for peace of mind (there's a history of allergies on DH's side and I would feel so guilty if later down the line lo developed an allergy and I know that I chose not to do something that might have prevented it from happening) Also, lo was born underweight so I felt she needed all the help she could get in life (but those are reasons personal to me). Anyway, b) I'm a lazy cow and would find all that bottle malarkay a faff (even at my lowest, most exhausted point with thrush the idea of dragging my carcass downstairs to make up a bottle sounded like an even worse horrendous nightmare) In fact in a way, I think bottle feeders should be given credit for putting in the effort which a lazy cow like me is unwilling to do.

So like I say, I'm interested in whether people always intended to use formula or whether they had to because bfing went wrong (and whether those people felt they were given the support they needed)and whether formula feeders (whatever their circumstances) think it's right that bf is actively promoted in the NHS. FWIW, I think it's right that bf is promoted by the NHS because according to one survey, a sizeable number of women believe that formula is just as good as bm which as mature MNers we know it isn't but equally I think the NHS is wrong to push that message without also acknowledging that most women will initially have problems and without providing good support for such women.

Anyway, like I say, I'm genuinely interested in seeing the other side of the ff/bf debate because usually it all descends into a playground fight which helps no-one and creates more divisions and prejudice.

So PLAY NICELY

(actually feel a bit guilty because I'm off to plant potatoes now but I will return at some stage)

[3easterbunniesandnomore]

phew...would have hated it if I was spouting myths or anything...

which is, by the way, as this thread also mkaes clear, part of the problem...those old myths that are spouted (usually in the best of intentions, but still as unhelpful) from the older generations...i.e. if your child feeds little and often, you don't have enough milk, if they wake often, you don't have enough, if you are petite you can't have enough, if you don't eat or drink well enough- it can effect your supply, that you cna't eat certain things because they will make your Baby colicky...and so on....it's weird those myths are still so common and favoured, really, considering that a lot of these problems also come wiht Bottlefed baby's, surely someone must have clicked on that then it probably has nhting to do with bf'ing, sigh!

[octo]

Thank you ladies - I have posted before and asked lots of questions which have had some good answers to. I am planning to breastfeed and would like to keep going and make it work - it is nice to have some more information and support

[nogoes]

Can I ask a question?

When I was trying unsuccessfully to bf ds he developed jaundice which just added to the worries that I had at the time. The jaundice cleared up once I switched to ff.

I have noticed on this thread that a few of you struggling with bf also had babies who developed jaundice. At the time I assumed that jaundice was quite common and didn't attribute it to poor feeding. Does anyone know the causes? Is it caused by baby not receiving enough milk or dehydration?

[3easterbunniesandnomore]

no goes...there are actually, if I remember this correctly, 2 different kind of jaundice, there is one, which could actually be made worse by bf, but the more common kind is different, however, it can affect feeding pattern, as a jaundiced Baby will be more tired and demand feeding might not be the way to go, but you should be adviced to feed them more often, as a jaundiced Baby will sleep long, therefore not wake up for feeding, then will sleep more because the BAby weakens and is loosing to much weighed...vicious circle, really...so, a jaundiced Baby shold be fed at least every 2, maximum 3 hours...i.e. you will have to try to actively wake them ( I know no easy feat...)...i.e. undress them change the nappy, give skin to skin and hope they feed well...that way the jaundic will go quicker (as they need to feed regularly to "flush" it out) and obviously the vicious circle doesn't happen.
Again, please, if this is wrong, someone tell me...

[3easterbunniesandnomore]

Dr. Jack Newman on Jaundice
looks quite informative, and he does know what he is talking about...dispite being a bloke

[clairemow]

Manictigger, in answer to your original q - I bf my DS1 for 6 months because that was what I'd read was beneficial. I didn't love it, but kept going a week at a time. If I'd loved it and found it really easy I'm not sure I'd have ever stopped! I found it hard not knowing how much he was drinking, which was silly really since after initially dropping masses of weight (2 weeks early, very sleepy c/section baby), he shot up all the centiles to be huge. When he lost loads of weight in the first 2 weeks, no one suggested formula to me. I'm glad they didn't as I might have given it to him in an effort to get him to put on some weight. Instead, the midwife came round every day, helped me with latch, and helped with techniques to keep him awake for more than a millisecond. We struggled on with bf and it did work out fine, and my supply seemed to be massive in the end (used to express 7 oz in the morning after feeding him for 45 mins - v. sore boobs first thing..!! ).

But with DS2, I fed for 13 weeks (including two expressed bottles) exclusively then started to mixed feed with formula for 2 feeds in the day. Finally he went to fully ff at 20 weeks. I had wanted to get to 6 months again, but I found it really really hard with DS1 when I was feeding DS2 for 45 mins to an hour every couple of hours. DS1 started to be really quiet and withdrawn, and I felt he was getting depressed as I just couldn't spend time with him. once DS2 was on formula, which he'd drink in about 5-10 minutes, DS1 became happier as we were able to get out more. It was simply a matter of time and having to decide that DS1's needs were important too.

[3easterbunniesandnomore]

links to more info about it on Kellymomsite

[nogoes]

Thanks 3easterbunnies.

[kittypants]

i bf dd for 6 weeks but on my hvs(now looking back stupid)advice i gave up as dd wasnt putting on weight,they were weighing her daily and blamed my crap diet so instead of sorting myself out i gave up.ds1 i didnt even try,was only 1 year later and still felt bad after not working out with dd(i felt so guilty-although i know formula is fine,i had it in my head id bf but couldnt).with ds2 i intended to bf,but ended up tube feed and then no interested in boob so i got dh to buy sterilser etc.2 weeks later i still had loads of milk so invited bf coucellor around to help,ds couldnt latch on,but i expressed for 6/8(cant remember) weeks after that,before another dumb hv said i was making hard work for myself by expressing,sterilising,bottle feeding breast milk etc.i wasnt finding it hard and ds is chubby man but again i was stupid and thought oh yes ive been given permission to stop and thought maybe life would be easier just to use formula so i stopped.wish i tried harder!also incedently ,the formula i was adviced to give ds (cant remeber which as changing,think c & g) contains fish oil,we are veggie so ds had fish oil without me realising which upset me as obviously id been able to make sure everything in my milk was what i wanted for him.
anyway long babbling post.

[Manictigger]

See I think the saddest thing about all these stories is the guilt that some people still feel. I've got a friend who's lo (actually at 8 he's prob not considered a lo anymore)was bf for 6 weeks and was putting on over a lb a week and was killing her (she says she was sliding into post natal depression purely because her body was feeding the baby at the expense of her and she's tiny anyway) It was only her mum turning up on her doorstop and taking over all the housework and telling her that bf wasn't the best option if it was killing her that really saved her. She switched to ff and whilst she knows she had done the best thing for her and her family, she still feels guilty and me telling her she has no reason to doesn't really help, if you feel guilty, logic doesn't really come into it. What angers me is that no professional stepped in and said that in HER situation mixed feeding might have actually been an option. I know that in most situations adding a bottle does interfere with your milk supply but I think in some situations it can really take the pressure off a mother and help her to at least bf some of the time which we're always told is better than nothing.

[kittypants]

oh forgot to add,the guilt of not being able to feed dd as i wanted helped with the pnd that lasted 2 babies and about 2.5/3 years..i think do what suits you,dont listen to those who say well i cant understand how you could/couldnt/didnt chose to etc bf/ff.look after you and yours and tell everyone else to bugger off!

[tiktok]

The best way to help a mother who wants to breastfeed desperately but is finding it too demanding is not to tell her she is killing herself (please....), but to work out ways of supporting her breastfeeding.

I fail to see how it's helpful to 'make' someone stop doing something that ends up with her having guilt and regret 8 years later - what's good about that?

Yes, in the first weeks bf can be demanding and need a lot of attention, and can mean you feel you are pinned to the sofa for hours and hours and hours.

Helpful friends and family can offer support by doing everything else the mother might otherwise be doing; they can help with holding the baby when the baby just needs a cuddle; they can help the mother experiment with slings and baby carriers so she can get off that sofa; they can step in with other suggestions (expressing occasionally?) and most of all, affirm her and keep away from doom-laded accusations of being a martyr, killing yourself, baby can't be getting enough and so on and so on.

[Manictigger]

I completely agree Tiktok but I guess noone can predict that someone will feel guilt 8 years down the line, you just do what seems best at the time. And in fairness to her mother, if I saw my daughter was an absolute wreck it would break my heart and I'd suggest anything to make it better (she did, as I say take on all the housework etc) and my friend is really grateful to her mum because without her, she doesn't see how she could have got through it.

[clairemow]

I think if I had had someone to take DS1 out for an hour or two every day, it would have made bf DS2 for longer much easier and manageable. I knew that as time went on DS2 would get quicker and quicker at feeding, and I would spend less time on the sofa, but I couldn't bear to see DS2 getting so down and quiet. Making me cry now in fact. Will stop.

[3easterbunniesandnomore]

tiktok...that always gets me on a lot of thsoe threads where the new mums to be are in terror at the thoguht of a mother or mil wanting to saty after the Birth, and people often agreeing that they shouldn't....we are a funny ole society really, because a mum was never meant to do it all from day one...in many cutures mums only need to concentrate on their newborn and on feeding and on resting after the strains of Birth...in our culture it's almost a competeition who is fitrst back into their pre pg Jeans, who has the cleanest house dispite a newborn and no help, etc...sigh...
I truely thing that the reason why bf went so swimingly for me with my 1. child is, that my mum stayed with us, and did all teh hosuework and gave me the opportunity to rest and get used to my Baby....of course she also had a good share of cuddles, but she never interfered, i.e. pushed me away to get them, if that amkes sense...
so....

Mythbusting
Better support
and more help for a new mum
(although this should be in the toehr thread, I suppose...the marketing breastfeeding one)

[Manictigger]

Please don't cry, I wouldn't have started this thread if I thought it would stir up so many feelings of guilt in people - we're all doing our best and guilt just saps the energy that we could be using for good things.

Cripes now I'll probably make people feel guilty about feeling guilty.

SueJonez!!!! we need a hopelessly flippant comment.

[clairemow]

Sorry manictigger - have stopped crying now. Actually, thinking about it again has confirmed to me in my mind that it was the right thing to do - so in fact, my little weep has made me feel better, and less guilty. Well done Manictigger!

[Manictigger]

Do I get to go to heaven now!?

(Actually, you've nearly set me off and saltwater on hobnobs doesn't taste good)

[clairemow]

Weren't you going to heaven anyway? After all, you managed to start a thread about ff and bf that hasn't (yet) descended into a brawl!

[Hulan]

I breast and bottle fed until DS was four months old. And i exclusively bottled fed at night during that time. Main reason: DS just never got full on my breast milk. And my health visitor was not understanding and basically tried forcing me to bf. I hated her. Still do. She made me feel like the worst mother in the world because I was topping DS up with bottle. At a day old, he would feed for an hour and still cry like a maniac afterwards. He would only settle after the formula. Clearly my milk was not rich enough, but as a first time mum, how was I to know that? This was never suggested to me, and I was allowed to believe that I was useless. While I don't dispute that breast is better than formula, in my circumstances my baby wanted more. Next time, we will try harder

[tiktok]

How horrible of your HV to make you feel so bad, Hulan...again and again, we're reading here of the poor knowledge base among HVs. Sounds as if you had rubbish info and support when your baby was still just a day old, too...no such thing as milk not being rich enough and it is normal for new babies to cry - yes, like 'maniacs' - when removed from the breast even if they have been there a long time (they thrive on the closeness and contact).

I don't think it's a question of trying 'harder' in your case or in other people's cases, either. It's simply support, understanding and good explanations, and no judgement about people's qualities as mothers...and I hope you have the right info next time.

[Hulan]

Thank you tiktok. I just really do feel guilty that I couldn't breastfeed him properly and that he always seemed so hungry. It hasn't affected him really, but it just makes me more determined for the next time round. You're just so green the first time round and rely so heavily on these people. Especially when your family are millions of miles away. And the support I got was practically nil.

[apeainapod]

First of all I have 3 perfectly healthy kids, and one growing. All of them BF until about 8 weeks.

DS1 - because he was losing too much weight adn slept too long so when he woke he was starving! I couldn't keep up. Along with that a rather nasty very ell known BF org called gave me a lecture saying 'if I wanted a healthy baby the only thing to do was to BF. Otherwise I will DS1 will never thrive properly and, because of my allergies, will propbably develop numerous amounts and be very poorly'. I called my MW and she heard DS1 screaming down the phone - her response? Get to the nearest 24 hour supermarket and get fomula and feed the baby. DS1 ate for Britain, and the rest of Europe. After that I mixed BF and FF. DS1 5 points - Mummy and Daddy 5 points!

DS2 - really hungry, DS1 was only 13 months old. I really could not put either of us what we went through before and so did the same as DS1.

DD - Little angel, completely BF until 8 weeks. With all of them we moved back here where unfortunately the old BF in public is really not tolerated!

To anyone who can say that BF is best, maybe it's true maybe it's not. Each mother naturally wants to do what is best for their baby, and I am sure that none of us would deliberately do anything to harm our little ones, we do what we can do in sometimes very emotional circumstances. If you manage to BF for 7 days or 7 months - Good for you. It is not a competition. If at the end of the day the babies are well and healthy surely that's the main thing!

[suejonez]

Still lurking but no hopelessly flippant comments come to mind...

[apeainapod]

suejonez - you have my mothers name. i suddenley put on my best behaviour. It's frightening!