I am ashamed of myself for being so judgemental.

[Gingerbear]

A mum from DD's school had a baby last week. I saw her yesterday and was chatting to her about all things baby. Then she got out a bottle and filled it with a carton of formula. I felt my heart sink and I thought, oh no, she hasn't even tried to breastfeed. I was about to say, 'I will be breastfeeding again next time' but held my tongue. I have no idea about her views, if she had problems with breastfeeding and I don't know her well enough to broach the subject.
It is such a personal issue, and so easy to offend someone. I just feel so sad and frustrated at myself for being unable to speak to her.

I felt a bit sorry for my friend's dd who was at a party where the kids out of the game were offered a haribo. My friend was so obsessive about colourings etc that her dd asked every single time if she would be allowed a haribo (or a drink, a cake, etc - mum not present) but was so desperate for one she took one regardless. That kid is so uptight and fearful as a result.

FF - dont feel bad - your friends daughter wont have had any of those things, and you cant miss what you've never had

To those people who say "It's only on MN where feelings like this appear, you never hear them in RL" - a few things.

Firstly, I've heard regrets like the ones expressed on this thread in RL, lots of times.

Secondly, if you haven't heard things like this, is it really any surprise - it's unlikely women will suddenly launch into a tale of heartbreak in the middle of a toddler group.

And thirdly, I don't know if I'm the only person who's noticed this, but MN does seem to attract posters who live in the real world too - so maybe, just maybe, it's easier to write honestly about how you feel about things like this on the world wide interweb than it is to chat in the pub.

I don't think GB started this thread to be unkind to people though. I think that people who know her in RL ought to know that she's not an unkind person.

That's not the issue SP, I think it's like TikTok says (I think) - someone can acknowledge the strong emotions an opinion they hold may cause in some people (and take account of those reactions in when and where they choose to express it), but reject the idea that either they or the opinion are intrinsically nasty and hurtful. That's where the significance of acknowledging someone's hypersensitivity to a particular issue comes in - not to justify riding roughshod over that hypersensitivity, but to defend the opinion and the speaker from accusations of intrinsic nastiness or cruelty, and get things in perspective.

fireflighty, I meant to say earlier - I think you have expressed yourself very well and calmly on this thread. very articulate

I agree Fireflighty.

I haven't felt people have these opinions to be delibrately nasty or cruel, but equally as you say it is important to recogise the impact on others of your opinion, which may not have the intent if being hurtful, but that is the feeling and recation it causes.

The opinion is valid, the reaction is valid.

The expressing of the opinion causes, without intent, hurt, I am therefore suprised that some don't acknowledge this hurt caused and wish to withold, or challenge the opinion.

Basically I don't understand, why when people say they are hurt and upset, others don't wish to respond to ease these feelings.

Particuarly women towards other women on an issue such as bf, when what we all need is each others support.

I've bored myself now. I've said the same thing over and over, and so will bow out.

Very glad you bit your tongue Gingerbear! I do know what you mean though - even though I went through hell and back with breastfeeding and have been fully formula feeding since DS was 4.5 months, I still find myself thinking judgmental thoughts about women formula feeding newborns.

Not read the whole thread btw, but you know what? Maybe she's just not comfortable bf in public (I know I wasn't, DS was so hard to latch on) and maybe she's not good at expressing. We really shouldn't judge at all, there are so many possible scenarios..

Twinklemegan, are you a lion tamer in real life?

You know, one of those people who puts their head right inside the lion's gaping jaws?

Just wondering....

Fireflighty, what a brilliant post.

Someone on this thread (sorry, I can't find the post now) said that people who judge but say nothing should not feel pleased with themselves. I beg to differ.

I've said this before, but I have the right to think whatever I like about any topic under the sun. It's my head. It is basic common decency to keep a lid on those thoughts that might hurt someone else's feelings.

However, I suspect that people who are reluctantly ff-ing are projecting an awful lot onto the facial expressions of strangers in the supermarket or cafe.

Take me for example. I am passionate about breastfeeding and I am totally convinced that babies should be breastfed whenever feasible.

But actually I don't feel even a flicker of disapproval when I see someone buying formula in the supermarket, or feeding a baby with a bottle. I'm not going to bore everyone witless with a long navel-gazing rationale of why that is. It just is.

On the other hand, I love babies and will always look at them, and often will make eye-contact with the mum in the process.

So if you meet me in the baby-goods aisle, or sit at the next table in my local cafe: Yes, I am looking at you. No, I am not thinking bad thoughts about formula. I am not thinking any thoughts about formula, let alone about you and your parenting skills. I am just looking at a fellow mum with a baby.

Strange but true.

LOL Welliemum - you know, I just can't help myself! Seriously though, these threads on MN are actually helping me to work through my own feelings about the issue - you see how unemotional my responses to this one have been?!

Just a point though on feeling sad for babies formula fed from birth, and I'm not criticising anyone for feeling that way... If anyone had met a little boy I know when he was a week old they should have felt REALLY sad for him as his mum couldn't bond with him, thought she didn't love him and tried to ignore his cries of hunger for as long as she could. That was my DS and he was being exclusively breastfed. Mum and baby were much much happier when he started having some formula.

Twinklemegan ,that was lovely,glad it had happy ending,well done you!just goes to show breast isnt always best!

'Breast is best" - ugh, how I hate that slogan.

At best, it's useless. At worst, it's completely untrue (as Twinklemegan found).

When I was pg my DH asked me if I would b/feed. I had never even thought about it tbh, and had just thought bottles. I said I'd try but not continue if it wasn't working due to the amount of negatitive that people spoke about (family)
Anyway, the first few weeks were bad. We just couldnt get the hang of it in the first few nights. I'd had a section so moving was difficult anyway, and I think without a very supporting midwife at the hospital, I'd probably have packed it in. I think when I left the hospital some of the midwives assumed I'd give up (we were critised for giving her expressed b/milk rather than "forcing" her to b/feed or take formula) and one nasty midwife had me crying when I asked for help. Once we were home, we seemed to settle into a routine and eventually it became second nature.

I am still b/feeding, shes nearly 16 months, she has "growing up" milk at the CM (up until a year I expressed at work for her to have in the day) and she has b/feed in morning and evening.

People at work often ask me about b/feeding as they know I have/am doing it. I never tell them that it's a better way. I never tell them that formula will harm their child. Because I appreciate that it is the last thing that somebody wants to hear.

I just explain how I found it, how it can get easier, but not to feel as if its a failure if it is not sucessful long term, but a sucess for the times you did.

A friend of mine is on mat leave with her second, we had our first at the same time. She didn't manage to sustain b/feeding the first time, and when pg the second time she explained her issues with the non b/feeding the first time, and she felt like she'd been pressured into giving in. But even in that situation, I tried to tread carefully because its easy for people feelings to be hurt when it comes to their children, as we all want to give the best but there is no rule as to what is best for everybody, just best for that mother-child combination.

My DH is far more vocal in being judgemental. He is very supportive about b/feeding but he doesn't judge about that, he is very vocal about dummies though, and I have had to kick him several times in the past!

ELF, it is my DP who is far more judgmental re people ff than I am. My opinions on ff/bf have varied throughout my life, from thinking that bf was some strange, unnatural thing to do as a child as I had only ever seen babies with a bottle to being told how disgusting bf is when pg with ds1, to thinking everybody should bf no matter what after having him.

MN has opened my eyes to the real world. I now know that there are so, so many reasons why a baby may be being given a bottle. Physical (mum & baby), psychological reasons, lack of support...

Re pg women buying formula. When pg with ds1 I bought formula, bottles, sterilser etc because I had so many people giving me their (unwanted) opinions that I didn't know how I was going to feed him until he was born. In the end the whole lot was never used.

Just one more thing to add. ds2 would not have a drink from a cup. After several weeks of trying lots of different ways to get him to drink, I eventually went out and bought a bottle, and he would gulp it down. When out one time he was drinking from it. One of the people that I was with (an MNer actually) was obviously 'sad' that he was using a bottle, and so I felt I had to explain that he wouldn't take from a cup. As she was leaving she said "Such a shame he has to have a bottle". I just sat there not knowing what to say, I was upset at the time that she'd felt the need to make that comment without knowing anything about us. Why should I have had to sit there and justify it to her? I don't tend to meet someone for the 1st time and tell them all about how long I bf'd for, how often etc. It makes me angry thinking about it now. Sorry rant over.

WHen I was pregnant I couldn't understand why women choose to bottle fed. I didn't have a bottle in the house. We sailed through the first couple of days waiting for my milk to come in, we waited and we waited and it never came in (PCOS undersupply problem and useless mw) My poor DD was starving so in desparation DH was ordered to the birth centre by mw to be handed formula and a teat. I found myself justifying why I was bottle feeding to everyone I met when I was feeding DD. I then met the wife of one of my husbands collegues who said that women who bottle fed took the easy option and were selfcentred and selfish. Poor DH came home to find me in bed with DD crying about being an unfit failure of mother. He gave me a hug and pointed out that starving my baby further would have made me an unfit mother.

Next time I will armed with loads of literature for MW and Drs to read about the medication I will need to BF. I haven't read all the posts but all I have to say is not everything is straightforward when someone is FF a baby.

Loopybear - just wanted to say that your post really resonated with me.

This isn't about the pro's/cons on BF versus FF. This about the attitudes of some staunch BF's that BF is the ONLY way to go and FF is wrong/unhealthy. That's what made the OP feel bad....the fact that this woman had even tried

Hearing how people have felt like failures is so sad. Who made them feel like that? The Breast is the Only Way to Go brigade, that's who. On the thread about smoking some people are saying smoking is better than formula!

BF/FF are personal choices, for whatever reason. A formula fed baby is much much better than a starved baby (I know of someone whose exclusive BF baby at 12 weeks suddenly refused the breast. The mother was told to go back to bed for a few days with baby and she did. She refused all formula that her family suggested. That baby ended up in hospital, dehydrated and starving, the mother's milk had dried up overnight....how can that ever be right??)

Formula may not be the 'perfect' baby food but it certainly won't hurt a baby.

A mother doing the best for her and her child should be applauded....not thought badly of because 'she hadn't even tried'

(owner of 3 brats, exclusively BF for 9-18 months between them, 1 brat preemie and expressed for 2 months, sister of a NCT BF councillor)

but you're missing the point, bigbird. i don't believe that anyone here is part of a BF is the Only Way to Go Brigade and i really object to the idea that there is. That really hasn't been the tone of the pro-bfers as i've read it.

anyway, to suggest that it's an outside influence that makes 'failed' bfers feel bad is barely half of the story. the truth is that i did it all to myself because in my case;

I am hugely pro-BFing.

I couldn't exclusively BF.

I had to adjust mentally to that fact, and it was very, very difficult.

seems to me like there are a lot of FF women on MN who are at different stages of that adjustment. i think i've made my peace with it now i'm glad to say and if there's a next time i'll go to hospital armed with info from tiktok et al and i will Do Better.

i really don't think GB did anything wrong, we all judge people for what they do and to suggest that we don't is disingenuous in the extreme. she caught herself 'judging', however, and knows enough to know that she should be ashamed of herself and consequently posted on here. i'm a bit stunned at the reaction, tbh.

Quite, Aitch.... good post.

bigbird: Who, and where, are people saying 'BF is the ONLY way to go and FF is wrong/unhealthy' ? I don't see this anywhere on mumsnet.

And makes women feel horrible about using formula? 'The Breast is the Only Way to Go brigade, that's who'. Well....I don't know who this Brigade is, but I would venture that these feelings come from inside the mum herself, maybe accentuated by what she feels are other people's opinions.

'On the thread about smoking some people are saying smoking is better than formula! ' Are they? I thought they were explaining that mothers who smoke can still bf, and that smoking does not mean they should only formula feed.

'BF/FF are personal choices, for whatever reason' If you have learnt anything about feeding, then it has to be, surely, that personal choice is sometimes not a part of this decision.

And 'A mother doing the best for her and her child should be applauded....not thought badly of because 'she hadn't even tried' '

But no one, that includes the OP, has even suggested they think badly of anyone who didn't bf.

It's misquoting, and misunderstanding, like this that fuels discord

I have seen quite a few posts on here saying terrible things about formula....formula is minging being one of them, equating formula with smoking, cot death and other things

I'd hate to be a new mum, popping on here for support, to be faced with some of the things I have seen on here

People with a differing viewpoint are shouted down

Parents get very little support from the 'professionals'....wouldn't hurt for parents to support each other, whatever their views

If OP didn't think it was wrong to FF why did she say 'my heart sank,she hadn't even tried'?

Why did her heart sink then? Her preference is to BF, who cares what the woman next to her is doing?

Adjusting to not being able to BF is completely different. Of course it's hard if you end up doing something different to what you wanted. But some women just don't want to and that is their right. FF isn't going to hurt their child. As someone else said, line up 5 year olds and you can't tell who was FF or BF

She didn't say 'I wonder if she tried and couldn't manage it" Her first thought was she hadnt tried

That's what I have a problem with, that's why people have a hard time adjusting when they have to not BF, not only dealing with something very personal but worrying what other 'earth' mothers think of them

Now you've lost me, bigbird.

You say, "FF isn't going to hurt their child. As someone else said, line up 5 year olds and you can't tell who was FF or BF"

You seem to be implying that it's all the same whether someone bf or ff.

But it isn't. Deciding how to feed your baby isn't like flipping a coin. If it were, there would be no need for this thread or this forum.

We all know of instances where ff turned out to be the better choice for a particular mum and baby, but overall (averagely over the whole population) bf is better. You cannot get around this stubborn fact.

IMO it's patronising to imply to someone who wanted to bf and couldn't, that it doesn't really matter. I think this thread is very good proof that it does matter. It matters enormously. There's no way of knowing how, or even whether, it matters to the individual baby, but it certainly matters to the mother.