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Infant feeding

Get advice and support with infant feeding from other users here.

tik tok

482 replies

daisymlaisy · 02/01/2007 10:01

I have just wrote such a lengthy reply and just lost it just before I posted it, how annoying so this will probably be a bit blunt, as I haven't got time to go into detail all over again!

I take great offence in you saying that if I have only done a 3-day course at Unicef I am not allowed to call myself a bf counsellor( sorry this is one word, I have always had a mental block on how to spell it, even though I use it lots, and its my job - its really frustrating!) as you said in one reply "I am not a professional but a volunteer" so does this mean you have had no training as such? as in the next reply you say " I am a Nct bf counsellor" So how come you are allowed to call yourself but I am not????

My training is as follows I am a qualified nursery nurse, Nurse, and did the 3-day Unicef breastfeeding course, which is one of the most respected in the country.

I have worked a as a maternity nurse for 9 years , this is where I have had huge amounts of experiance and it is here where I have usually found that feeding more regularly than 2 hourly after the age of 3-4 weeks and if the mother has a well established milk supply can be helped, and many mothers if they are honest will say they are allowing their baby to snack when they want, rather than encouraging proper full feeds. I have a very long testimonial record for mothers who when I went to see them they were feeding very regularly as in every 30 mins -1hour thinking thats what they should be doing. However once I had explained to them to look out for other sign for example crying cause they are tired etc and obviously making sure that there are no problems of tongue tie, poor milk supply, over milk supply etc , we could encourage the baby to demand feed 2/3hourly instead. I for one who bf my own daughter til she was 7 months,if I was feeding her every 30 mins -an hour would of welcomed someone to tell me this needn't be the case. So I still stand by the fact that if the baby is over 3-4 weeks old and the mother has a GOOD milk supply 2 hourly feeds should easily be maintainable, and it is quite often mis-guided information why the mother is allowing the baby to snack every 30mins, or poor attachment, milk supply etc could be a reason for it. however it in most cases can be successfully turned around to frequent feeds every 2-3 hours.

To finish my qualifications- I have worked as a nurse on a neonatal ward for 2 years, here I did see the extremes where babies are being encouraged to feed every 30 mins-1hour to help with the mothers milk supply.

I have been practicing as a bf councellor for 2 years now.

I do feel like i have been interogated by you, and will not be posting on here any more, you have made that impossible for me anyway by tarnishing my name. So keep up the good work helping all those mothers out there and lets hope you never word anything wrong. Of course I wouldn't do this in real life, it was one of the very few times I had been on here, and I was just writing facts,and my opinions wrongly not thinking about emotional ,sleep deprived mothers who may have read it, how it was most certainly not meant. I hope to have learnt by this mistake, and think more when I am writing.

If you feel like you need to justify yourself to me , like I did to you, please do not worry, if you want to call yourself a bf counsellor, reading your threads you sound more than capable to do this. Though please do not doubt other professionals. We are all going to have slightly different views depending on our experiances and qualifications and training, certainly doesn't need one to attack another, this most certainly would put the fear of god, into already confused new mothers, who feel they don't know who to trust.

OP posts:
HappyTwoFRAUsandAndSeven · 02/01/2007 18:22

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

lulumama · 02/01/2007 18:23
tiktok · 02/01/2007 18:24

lulu - no one is attacking daisy here.

If you read earlier posts and other threads too, you will see she began by being quite rude to me and others....but she is being nicer now so I won't mention it

QV - good analysis of what mumsnet does and what anyone on it offering advice has to bear in mind....and how no one should be offended if someone offers supplementary or corrective info. It's certainly happened to me, and it would be daft to get on my high horse and act as if I was being attacked!

lulumama · 02/01/2007 18:25

no , i see that tiktok.....was just drawing an analogy..but i apologise if i have oversimplified the issue

tiktok · 02/01/2007 18:26

Happy - those are great examples and very apt.

It's about knowing boundaries and limits, not about superiority or inferiority.

daisymlaisy · 02/01/2007 18:26

I still don't know what I said about hindmilk and foremilk that is not correct, nobody has told me.

It is important for the baby to reach the hindmilk otherwise he will be getting only lowfat feeds, what part of this is not correct? which can be one of the reasons for a baby not gaining weight.yes it is right that the fat levels in breastmilk gradually increase throughout the duration of the feed . The milk that is available to the baby at the beginning of the feed contains high levels of protein, lactose and water but is low in fat, as the feed progresses, the fat levels rise, increasing the calorie content of the milk. The milk taken by the baby at the end of the feed is rich in fat, and referred to as hind milk, or as I call it dessert, but thats just me!

I did not say that one bottle of formula has greatly diminishes the effects of breastfeeding as this is not true, flack.
What I said was to get the full health benefits of breastfeeding to mother and baby, you have to do it exclusively any bottle of formula you introduce lowers these benefits as you are no longer exclusively breastfeeding.

OP posts:
tiktok · 02/01/2007 18:26

Accepted, lulumama

DizzyBint · 02/01/2007 18:28

i think the hot tap analogy that kellymom use is more helpful than your 3 course meal one. i don't start eating my pudding while i'm still eating my main course. carrots and custard?

tiktok · 02/01/2007 18:34

OK, daisy - about hindmilk and foremilk

Read the kellymom link, as it will help a lot.

Where you are not quite right is where you say the baby has to 'reach' the hindmilk.

Fattier milk is not present in relation to the length of the feed, but in relation to the amount of milk in the breast.

A relatively empty breast will have comparatively fattier milk; a relatively full breast will have comparatively less fatty milk.

If there are longish gaps between feeds, then more watery components trickle down to the front of the breast and become available to the baby as soon as he gets on. As the feed progresses, the milk gets fattier as the breasts become less full.

But a baby leaving shortish gaps only between feeds may well get a fattier mouthful straight away.

It's also complicated by a mother's own storage capacity, too, and the effectiveness of the baby's suck.

Kellymom explains it well.

Hope this helps.

daisymlaisy · 02/01/2007 18:37

can't please everyone dizzy , just I like the saying so I use it!

Thank lulu, any support is grateful.

Tik tok i did feel slightly attacked and interrogated by you earlier, however I not know I had probably mis-construed the way it was meant, because yes I am very passionate about what I do, and I have been counselling for 2 years now since I did the course, so now feel alot more equipped to counsel mothers, and I can only learn from yourselves and others and get better informed.

I did not attack you either, although like your messages, probably sounded to you like I was, hurt, yes

OP posts:
VeniVidiVickiQV · 02/01/2007 18:39

Why thank you tiktok

Tiktok - please explain in your own words about foremilk and hindmilk

I find the running hot tap and daisy's description not too dissimilar........

DizzyB - DD would eat carrot and custard any day

DizzyBint · 02/01/2007 18:39

can you see though how the hot tap analogy is perhaps more helpful? the 3 course dinner one you use suggests is really very different.

DizzyBint · 02/01/2007 18:41

lol QV. ok fair enough!

VeniVidiVickiQV · 02/01/2007 18:41

oh, you just did, lol!

VeniVidiVickiQV · 02/01/2007 18:42

Okay, now, someone explain why all this reading about b/feeding has given me a slight let down? (20 months down the line too fgs!)

VeniVidiVickiQV · 02/01/2007 18:43

and running hot tap makes more sense now too lol!

daisymlaisy · 02/01/2007 18:46

A relatively empty breast will have comparatively fattier milk; a relatively full breast will have comparatively less fatty milk.

Yes you are absolutely right Tik tok, as the fattier milk is after the foremilk,.

So it is exactly what I said but different wording,.

If you are just begining a feed then yes it is important for the baby to reach the hindmilk and not to be taken off too early by the mother, ( thinking he's had enough),

hope this makes sense online counselling is not easy !

OP posts:
DizzyBint · 02/01/2007 18:49

but that's the whole point daisy, it's not AFTER the foremilk. it's not like pudding is AFTER the main course.

MrsBadger · 02/01/2007 18:52

But a baby who latches on to a 'relatively empty breast' say, half an hour after the last feed will get pudding first. He won't get soup and a main course.

MrsBadger · 02/01/2007 18:55

Ah, I forgot, feeding again after half hour indicates a problem because it 'should' only be every two hours...I'm starting to get the picture.

nothercules · 02/01/2007 18:56

The trouble is daisy your ananlogy however nice isnt quite accurate as it's not actually like a dessert after main course. By saying it is you are misrepresenting it whether you like the expression or not.

Not sure why you'd be hurt by people pointing out inaccuracies.

tiktok · 02/01/2007 19:26

daisy, what you are saying is not the same as me, and as I said, it is not a question of the baby 'having to reach' the hindmilk. The milk is not divided into different sorts of milk, either. The 'foremilk' does not have to come before the 'hindmilk'.

I am not getting at you, but I don't know how to explain it more - maybe you need to think about it more and see how what you are saying to mothers just does not quite hit the spot!

popsycal · 02/01/2007 19:29

it is a kind of continuum isnt it.... like orange squash....imagine fore and hind as the orange and the water......different 'strengths' which gradually change throughout the feed. not like orange squash then cola...

suedonim · 02/01/2007 19:49

Just an interested amateur here (bf four dc, three of them successfully) but I like the hot tap analogy! Is there a scientific definition of fore and hindmilk eg according to the percentage of fats?

Again as an amateur, the terms bf management, bf support and bf counselling all suggest different things to me. The first implies I'd have a passive role to play and that I would follow rules eg feeding for a certain length of time at certain intervals. The second suggests someone who sympathises because they have been in a similar boat and come out the other side ok so can give me encouragemnt. The third term makes me think of someone who will show me the options available, based on scientific facts, rather than advice, and then supports me in whatever I decide to do. Jm2p.

suedonim · 02/01/2007 19:49

Just an interested amateur here (bf four dc, three of them successfully) but I like the hot tap analogy! Is there a scientific definition of fore and hindmilk eg according to the percentage of fats?

Again as an amateur, the terms bf management, bf support and bf counselling all suggest different things to me. The first implies I'd have a passive role to play and that I would follow rules eg feeding for a certain length of time at certain intervals. The second suggests someone who sympathises because they have been in a similar boat and come out the other side ok so can give me encouragemnt. The third term makes me think of someone who will show me the options available, based on scientific facts, rather than advice, and then supports me in whatever I decide to do. Jm2p.

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