Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Infant feeding

Get advice and support with infant feeding from other users here.

tik tok

482 replies

daisymlaisy · 02/01/2007 10:01

I have just wrote such a lengthy reply and just lost it just before I posted it, how annoying so this will probably be a bit blunt, as I haven't got time to go into detail all over again!

I take great offence in you saying that if I have only done a 3-day course at Unicef I am not allowed to call myself a bf counsellor( sorry this is one word, I have always had a mental block on how to spell it, even though I use it lots, and its my job - its really frustrating!) as you said in one reply "I am not a professional but a volunteer" so does this mean you have had no training as such? as in the next reply you say " I am a Nct bf counsellor" So how come you are allowed to call yourself but I am not????

My training is as follows I am a qualified nursery nurse, Nurse, and did the 3-day Unicef breastfeeding course, which is one of the most respected in the country.

I have worked a as a maternity nurse for 9 years , this is where I have had huge amounts of experiance and it is here where I have usually found that feeding more regularly than 2 hourly after the age of 3-4 weeks and if the mother has a well established milk supply can be helped, and many mothers if they are honest will say they are allowing their baby to snack when they want, rather than encouraging proper full feeds. I have a very long testimonial record for mothers who when I went to see them they were feeding very regularly as in every 30 mins -1hour thinking thats what they should be doing. However once I had explained to them to look out for other sign for example crying cause they are tired etc and obviously making sure that there are no problems of tongue tie, poor milk supply, over milk supply etc , we could encourage the baby to demand feed 2/3hourly instead. I for one who bf my own daughter til she was 7 months,if I was feeding her every 30 mins -an hour would of welcomed someone to tell me this needn't be the case. So I still stand by the fact that if the baby is over 3-4 weeks old and the mother has a GOOD milk supply 2 hourly feeds should easily be maintainable, and it is quite often mis-guided information why the mother is allowing the baby to snack every 30mins, or poor attachment, milk supply etc could be a reason for it. however it in most cases can be successfully turned around to frequent feeds every 2-3 hours.

To finish my qualifications- I have worked as a nurse on a neonatal ward for 2 years, here I did see the extremes where babies are being encouraged to feed every 30 mins-1hour to help with the mothers milk supply.

I have been practicing as a bf councellor for 2 years now.

I do feel like i have been interogated by you, and will not be posting on here any more, you have made that impossible for me anyway by tarnishing my name. So keep up the good work helping all those mothers out there and lets hope you never word anything wrong. Of course I wouldn't do this in real life, it was one of the very few times I had been on here, and I was just writing facts,and my opinions wrongly not thinking about emotional ,sleep deprived mothers who may have read it, how it was most certainly not meant. I hope to have learnt by this mistake, and think more when I am writing.

If you feel like you need to justify yourself to me , like I did to you, please do not worry, if you want to call yourself a bf counsellor, reading your threads you sound more than capable to do this. Though please do not doubt other professionals. We are all going to have slightly different views depending on our experiances and qualifications and training, certainly doesn't need one to attack another, this most certainly would put the fear of god, into already confused new mothers, who feel they don't know who to trust.

OP posts:
tiktok · 02/01/2007 16:15

daisy - ABM would not let you complete that course in a week. You are misrepresenting them in a number of ways see here

There is in addition an important element of self-development in their course in addition counselling skills. Please don't denigrate them as offering something that could be done in a week.

hunkermunker · 02/01/2007 16:15

It's not just about consumption of "facts" though, is it? It's about experience, counselling skills, not getting women's backs up (something that I would need to work on, should I decide to do the training!) - some of what you've written as advice I know isn't true in the way that you've said it - it's "kind of" and "almost" and "not quite right" - it's what Tiktok has been saying to you.

The stuff about foremilk and hindmilk you've said, for instance - it's not quite right.

daisymlaisy · 02/01/2007 16:15

likewise to you Tik tok, we are definately singing from the same song sheet accoding to maternity nurses.

Have you read my thread about the abm course, what do you think the difference are between the abm and the UNICEF course? out of interest?

Yes people just get in contact with me via word of mouth and I do regular talks with my local Nct groups about baby care in general- using my maternity nurse background- I talk to them about routines etc, and also still have contact with the hospital ante-natal wards from when I was a neo-natal nurse.

OP posts:
hunkermunker · 02/01/2007 16:17

Do you need to have breastfed for six months before you can do the Unicef course?

tiktok · 02/01/2007 16:24

well then, daisy, if you don't care for non-qualified people calling themselves 'maternity nurses' you will appreciate what I am saying to you about styling yourself as a breastfeeding counsellor

The difference between the 3-day 'lactation management' course and a breastfeeding counsellor course from any of the vol.orgs probably lies mostly in the title. They are different. And I don't go round calling myself a 'lactation manager' either! The Unicef course is a good one - for people who want to know more about how to manage lactation (and that might well include some bfcs who want to top up some of their physiology knowledge, for instance). But it will not equip you with counselling skills. You may well have acquired some of these in other areas of your work, of course.

Hunker, the Uniceof course is mainly aimed at midwives and other healthcare professionals and no, you don't have to have breastfed. That's ok, in my book.....people can support breastfeeding and learn about it whatever their background or gender, come to that! But they can't be breastfeeding counsellors with the existing vol.orgs without the experience. It's a different approach with a different expectation.

tiktok · 02/01/2007 16:26

Can I ask how much you charge, daisy? Do you have a website?

DizzyBint · 02/01/2007 16:28

just done a bit of googling, looking at breastfeeding counselling or peer support that i might do, seems that Unicef offer specific breastfeeding counselling courses, as well as and on top of 'lactation management' courses.

from unicef.org

Training courses
UNICEF/IBFAN. Training Guide in Lactation Management. (Sometimes called the 80-hour course). Available in most UN languages from IBFAN and UNICEF offices.

UNICEF/WHO. Breastfeeding Management and Promotion in a Baby-Friendly Hospital: an 18-hour course for maternity staff. Available in all UN and many national languages, from UNICEF and WHO offices and national breastfeeding authorities.

WHO/UNICEF. Breastfeeding Counselling: a training course (Sometimes called the 40-hour course). Available in several languages from WHO and UNICEF offices.

WHO/UNAIDS/UNICEF. HIV and Infant Feeding Counselling: a training course. A three-day course intended to follow and supplement the Breastfeeding Counselling course, where appropriate. Available from WHO, UNAIDS and UNICEF offices.

tiktok · 02/01/2007 16:30

Think you'll find that WHO/UNICEF breastfeeding course is not on offer in the UK, dizzy....that's my understanding, anyway.

tiktok · 02/01/2007 16:30

The emphasis is on bf in developing countries.

hunkermunker · 02/01/2007 16:31

I thought that was the case.

I don't think the woman who told me that I should only ever offer one side per feed because "that's what the advice is now" could have breastfed.

I don't think that someone whose breasts have only every been used to look nice under tops can ever really give empathetic advice about the feelings behind bfeeding (however detached that advice may come across as, since I know that as a counsellor you shouldn't regale people you're counselling with your own personal tales).

DizzyBint · 02/01/2007 16:31

perhaps so. but it suggests to me that their lactation management doesn't cover the detail required for bf counselling.

daisymlaisy · 02/01/2007 16:32

I take that back, probably not a week, however I think if you did it full time, you could do it alot quicker than a year.

Content wise I am just saying that there sounds to be little difference betweeen the 2 courses, obviously can't say for a fact as I haven't seen the full course details and compared them with the unicef one.

I definately agree that my wording needs some work to be read correctly, luckily though I don't have to write much in my job! otherwise I wouldn't be doing so well!

What I said about hind milk and foremilk is correct to my knowledge. It is important that the baby reaches the hindmilk (dessert) as taking the baby off the breast too early can result in the baby just getting low-fat feeds and therefore one of the reasons you would suspect maybe happening if you had a client whose young baby wasn't gaining weight. I say one of the reasons.

OP posts:
tiktok · 02/01/2007 16:34

Hunker....some excellent bf support people haven't breastfed, and they can still be empathic. But they can't be breastfeeding counsellors as the content of the course values and uses personal experience as a springboard for learning not just about bf but about motherhood....and it then goes on to allow those experiences not to get in the way of effective counselling.

I think someone who gives incorrect advice about 'one side only' is just poorly trained - maybe she has been on a course but she hasn't learnt the content effectively

tortoiseshell · 02/01/2007 16:34

I bow to others greater knowledge, but I always understood that the milk gets progressively higher in fat as you go through the feed - to do with where the fat is stored in the breast I think. I don't think it's correct to say the hind milk is 'dessert' - it sounds like the hind milk suddenly 'switches on' whereas the milk changes its constituency.

Well that's how I always understood it! no doubt I'll be corrected.

ivelostmyboobsboohoo · 02/01/2007 16:34

this is prob completely irrelevant but i was a breastfeeding peer supporter here in exeter for about 3 years. it was amazing to see the group grow and develop. i 'trained' for about 12 weeks, just 1 day a week. to be honest, though, i cant remember much about the technical bits of what i learnt. the hv running the course alongside our pct said we were not allowed to say how we felt when we were bfing or talk of our experiences or to say what worked for us. but to me and my fellow peeer supportes that was what it was all about. i felt like if i didnt talk to the mums on their level and show them that i really empathised that there was no point- i may just of well given them a leaflet on bfing and left them to it otherwise. letting mums know they arent the only ones, that it will get better, and to encourage. i think thats whats needed actually- not just technical advice about attachment etc.

tortoiseshell · 02/01/2007 16:36

[Hi-jack - Hunker have you ever thought of training to be a b/f counsellor? I've always thought how knowledgeable and, well, just nice you are on here]

daisymlaisy · 02/01/2007 16:37

sorry tik tok that is a bit personal, I wouldn't ask you how much your family earn. No I don't have a website wish I did!
We did cover counselling , we did a whole day on it, no where near enough though, I'm hoping it comes with experiance.

Which Nct area are you a breastfeeding counsellor for Tik tok?

OP posts:
hunkermunker · 02/01/2007 16:38

Yes, should've made it clear that I didn't think that decent bfeeding support was solely the preserve of those who had bfed.

It seemed I had a point when I last posted, but I can't for the life of me work out what it was now.

Forgive me, for I had but three hours sleep last night [insomniac]

tiktok · 02/01/2007 16:41

daisy - you would not be permitted to do it quickly, as the self-development and understanding needed to be effective takes time to happen! You are gonna be annoying the ABM if you continue in this way

Unlike the ABM counselling course, there is no self-development or counselling involved in the lactation management course (and there couldn't be, not in 3 days....these skills take time to evolve).

And you really haven't fully understood hindmilk and foremilk, you know! The fact you talk about 'reaching' the hindmilk is a giveaway. You are of course right about not removing the baby before he indicates he wants to be removed.

I am sounding a bit harsher than I feel, probably, 'cos I do believe you are well-meaning, but boy, you are a hard nut to crack

hunkermunker · 02/01/2007 16:41

Really Tortoiseshell?! I think I can be pretty horrible!

I have thought of it though - but I don't have time atm - I know I'd not be able to commit the time to it and I'd be cross with myself for dropping out. I'm only just over PND - this time next year I hope to have moved house and be a lot less hectic with work and DIY, etc - and yes, it's something I'd like to do.

In the meantime, I'm hassling my maternity hospital to provide better support

tortoiseshell · 02/01/2007 16:42

Well you were lovely to me when ds2 was born!

tiktok · 02/01/2007 16:45

Daisy: you may well be right you did a whole day on counselling skills in the LM course - my info is that it is not covered in that way, but I could be wrong.

However, counselling skills evolve with self-development and understanding and you can't 'do' them in a day and feel you have acquired them.

tiktok · 02/01/2007 16:45

hunker - you wd be an excellent bfc!

tiktok · 02/01/2007 16:47

Sorry, daisy, you thought I was personal asking how much you charged....presumably when someone calls you to arrange a consult, you do tell 'em then, don't you??!

I was being nosy, though, you are right!!

daisymlaisy · 02/01/2007 16:47

I breastfed my daughter for 7 months , just in case people on here think I haven't and I get slammed again !

your quite right tortoiseshell it is where it changes consistency, I call it dessert, just so mothers can relate to it, as talking about foremilk and hindmilk to new mothers who haven't the faintest idea what you mean, it makes it more understandable and explains it in what I think is a nice way. The first milk is lower in fat, with the milk the baby gets at the end of the feed being the highest in fat, starter, main meal, and dessert to us!

OP posts:
Swipe left for the next trending thread