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Infant feeding

Get advice and support with infant feeding from other users here.

tik tok

482 replies

daisymlaisy · 02/01/2007 10:01

I have just wrote such a lengthy reply and just lost it just before I posted it, how annoying so this will probably be a bit blunt, as I haven't got time to go into detail all over again!

I take great offence in you saying that if I have only done a 3-day course at Unicef I am not allowed to call myself a bf counsellor( sorry this is one word, I have always had a mental block on how to spell it, even though I use it lots, and its my job - its really frustrating!) as you said in one reply "I am not a professional but a volunteer" so does this mean you have had no training as such? as in the next reply you say " I am a Nct bf counsellor" So how come you are allowed to call yourself but I am not????

My training is as follows I am a qualified nursery nurse, Nurse, and did the 3-day Unicef breastfeeding course, which is one of the most respected in the country.

I have worked a as a maternity nurse for 9 years , this is where I have had huge amounts of experiance and it is here where I have usually found that feeding more regularly than 2 hourly after the age of 3-4 weeks and if the mother has a well established milk supply can be helped, and many mothers if they are honest will say they are allowing their baby to snack when they want, rather than encouraging proper full feeds. I have a very long testimonial record for mothers who when I went to see them they were feeding very regularly as in every 30 mins -1hour thinking thats what they should be doing. However once I had explained to them to look out for other sign for example crying cause they are tired etc and obviously making sure that there are no problems of tongue tie, poor milk supply, over milk supply etc , we could encourage the baby to demand feed 2/3hourly instead. I for one who bf my own daughter til she was 7 months,if I was feeding her every 30 mins -an hour would of welcomed someone to tell me this needn't be the case. So I still stand by the fact that if the baby is over 3-4 weeks old and the mother has a GOOD milk supply 2 hourly feeds should easily be maintainable, and it is quite often mis-guided information why the mother is allowing the baby to snack every 30mins, or poor attachment, milk supply etc could be a reason for it. however it in most cases can be successfully turned around to frequent feeds every 2-3 hours.

To finish my qualifications- I have worked as a nurse on a neonatal ward for 2 years, here I did see the extremes where babies are being encouraged to feed every 30 mins-1hour to help with the mothers milk supply.

I have been practicing as a bf councellor for 2 years now.

I do feel like i have been interogated by you, and will not be posting on here any more, you have made that impossible for me anyway by tarnishing my name. So keep up the good work helping all those mothers out there and lets hope you never word anything wrong. Of course I wouldn't do this in real life, it was one of the very few times I had been on here, and I was just writing facts,and my opinions wrongly not thinking about emotional ,sleep deprived mothers who may have read it, how it was most certainly not meant. I hope to have learnt by this mistake, and think more when I am writing.

If you feel like you need to justify yourself to me , like I did to you, please do not worry, if you want to call yourself a bf counsellor, reading your threads you sound more than capable to do this. Though please do not doubt other professionals. We are all going to have slightly different views depending on our experiances and qualifications and training, certainly doesn't need one to attack another, this most certainly would put the fear of god, into already confused new mothers, who feel they don't know who to trust.

OP posts:
daisymlaisy · 02/01/2007 17:51

but I'm reading! what were hit and miss?

OP posts:
hunkermunker · 02/01/2007 17:51
hunkermunker · 02/01/2007 17:52

The stuff about feeding 2-hourly being "a problem" and the stuff about the way foremilk and hindmilk works, plus whatever it was I asked you to clarify the other day - can't remember what it was - hang on, I'll check.

VeniVidiVickiQV · 02/01/2007 17:52

Can someone explain properly about foremilk and hindmilk for us plebs?

hunkermunker · 02/01/2007 17:55

It was where you said the health benefits of breastfeeding were almost cancelled out if you were only doing two feeds a day.

MrsBadger · 02/01/2007 17:55

I'd refer to the oracle but what do I know

[runs away]

tiktok · 02/01/2007 17:55

Quad, you are right to raise this issue of what makes a counsellor - it's certainly more than reading a library full of books and ticking boxes, or going on a course.

This is where the vol.orgs do pretty well - or at least NCT does, as this is the only course I know in depth. Counselling skills are taught, studied, practised and assessed - and it takes time to do them properly. I think they can be learnt, though, and you don't have to be a 'natural' from the very start.

I don't think you have to use counselling skills to support bf, either, but (call me picky) I do rather prefer people to have a qualification before they start labelling themselves as a breastfeeding counsellor, and no one will convince me that 3 days plus a mountain of optional folders is the same .... and I think it is only fair to mothers for us all to keep reasonably well to the correct names.

And daisy, you still don't quite get foremilk and hindmilk, sorry......as hunker says, the knowledge you have shown here is a bit hit and miss when it comes to the finer technicalities. For 90 per cent of bf support, it doesn't matter. But you have popped up on mumsnet offering advice with a breastfeeding counsellor's hat on, and you have to be spot on with what you say....or if not, you need to expect a challenge, and not react as if someone had attacked you. That's part of being the professional person you want to be, surely?

tiktok · 02/01/2007 17:56

daisy, I am an NCT bfc.

flack · 02/01/2007 17:59

Actually, could I ask a technical question?

On the other thread Daisyml implied that even one bottle of formula greatly diminished the health benefits of breastfeeding.

I wondered how much even one bottle a day greatly diminished the advantages of breastfeeding. By 5%? 50%? 80%? Does it completely remove all the advantages in some areas, or just partially remove the advantage in all areas (or just some areas)? Surely DaisymL wouldn't make the statement if the difference hadn't been measured, so what is the difference?

If we took the health benefits of breastfeeding being (among others, I imagine):

Reduced gastroenteritus
Reduced risk of childhood leukemia
Less development of allergies, allergic conditions
Lower risk of cot death
Lower risk of cancer
Lower risk of dermititis
Fewer ear infections
Lower risk of adult obesity
Lower risk of mother getting breast cancer
Lower risk of liver disease
Lower risk of crooked teeth
(Possibly) slightly higher IQ
(Possibly) Lower risk of diabetes
(Possibly) Lower risk of cancer

Which ones are reduced and by how much?

If that list is wrong then please someone fix it for me. I got it out of Janet Tamaro book.

Quadrophenia · 02/01/2007 18:02

obviously I believe to be any form of counsillor you also need a wealth of knowledge to combine with your interpersonal skills. I could sit around listening to people all day but if I have nothing of value to add then I would only have done half a job!

VeniVidiVickiQV · 02/01/2007 18:03

Ah, now, if the 'experts' on here really wanted to delve into pedantry Flack.....

They'd say....B/feeding is natural and therefore doesnt have 'benefits', as such.

However, formula brings with it certain increased risks of all of those things you listed.

Am I learning?????

tiktok · 02/01/2007 18:05

Quad, you are right about the possibility that daisy may be a natural at counselling, without the formal qualification - I do think some people are. Can't say I have noticed this yet in her replies here, but writing and face to face work is different!

But I might be a natural at Cordon Bleu cooking

yet I wouldn't go round calling myself a chef or saying I am one on cooking and recipe threads. I mean, I could say I was a chef because the title is not protected....but in the interests of clarity and fairness to Gordon Ramsay, I wouldn't

Quadrophenia · 02/01/2007 18:05

that is a fabbo response QV

VeniVidiVickiQV · 02/01/2007 18:06

Yay!!!!

MrsBadger · 02/01/2007 18:07

Ooh, good point (ages ago now) about offering advice on MN with a hat on - I very rarely post wearing my (ahem) Health Professional hat because it's just too hard to give specific, detailed advice that won't be
a) inaccurate because I don't have all the information
b) misconstrued by the original poster
c) misused by someone else who thinks they have the same problem
d) directly contradictory to what their GP (who has their notes and the patient standing in front of them) will say.

I appreciate I am a lazy coward , but it does make me appreciate all the more the people who do post good advice with their hats on.

Quadrophenia · 02/01/2007 18:08

like I say Tiktok it simply isn't enought to be a good counsillor if you don't have the knowledge to back it up, i haven't read the thread in question so have no idea about daisymlaisys postings!
I wanted to be a breastfeeding councillor myself looked into it with the ABM but I couldn't agree with it all so had to give up!

daisymlaisy · 02/01/2007 18:08

I would just like to say as lightly as possible, it has been quite hard as a newbie to come on here and defend myself, up against all of you, who sounds like you are all quite familiar with one another.

I feel like I am totally experianced enough to help mothers establish breastfeeding their baby, Only I know what areas were covered on the course and whether I feel like I am educated enough to go out into the community, I'm sorry but none of you can possibly know that. I have lots of testimonials from happy mothers, so I must be pretty good at my job. I do call myself a breastfeeding counsellor, but like we have discussed this isn't illegal and aslong as I do a good job, and correctly inform to the best of my knowledge, surely there is no crime in this?

I do have my own child, so believe I can be very empathetic to mothers. listening and learning are important counselling skills . A breastfeeding mother may not talk about her feelings easily, especially if she is shy, or with someone whom she does not know well, as I rely on word of mouth, most of my clients do feel they know me, as their friends have recommended me, which I think makes me a good bf counsellor.

OP posts:
lulumama · 02/01/2007 18:13

ok,

i post a lot on childbirth threads, i am a trainee doula, as of 6 weeks ago with no rl experience yet..shall i not call myself a trainee doula? if daisymslaisy has done an approved course, it cannot possibly cover every BF eventuality, just as the course i did, cannot cover every birth eventuality.

i have always had an interest and a passion for pregnancy and birth and am relieved to have found a way to use that in a positive way.....

as quad said, some people can just 'be' counsellors, they are born with that innate ability

but i use mumsnet as a place to offer some words of advice, and to LEARN from other more experienced doulas, and mothers...and learn i have !

i will never , ever stop learning, and every day, i read an article or a book or a magazine or web page about birth

pregnancy , labour, birth and feeding have similarities for each woman to a certain extent but the emotion and the personal experience can vary widely, and the perception of t he experience

we can all learn so much from each other. that is the beauty of mumsnet

if daisymlaisy is giving apparently incorrect information, surely better to offer the right info, rather than an attack on her

MrsBadger · 02/01/2007 18:14

I'm sorry if we've come across as harsh (and we certainly don't all know each other), Daisy, but I hope you can see how it went from our point of view.

I'm sure your happy mothers are indeed happy mothers and you are a great help and support in real life... maybe it's a whole different skill set being a BFC online where we can only type, not talk!

VeniVidiVickiQV · 02/01/2007 18:14

Daisy....we have all been newbies at one point

Dont take it to heart. Its all about making sure that we, as a community, provide the most accurate and up-to-date information we can to the 250,000 or so posters and lurkers that wander on through here each month - or is it year - an awful lot of people, anyway.

When giving advice on such an important subject we all have to bear this in mind when we post, and as such, be prepared for someone to improve our knowledge should that situation arise.

I think, once you have settled here a bit, you can take on board what has been said, and rather be hurt by it, simply use it to your advantage to further improve yourself and your skills and knowledge as a breastfeeding 'counsellor'. Surely this can only be a good thing for you and the mothers that you support?

PeachyClair · 02/01/2007 18:16

Daisy, I did the UNCEF course too, I loked into AGBM training after and it was vastly more in depth- would ahev loved to so it mind, but satrted Uni at the same time.

FWIW the Unicef course is ggood, just nowhere near in depth as much as the others.

Who do you know at Unicef? cerys?

PeachyClair · 02/01/2007 18:17

)PMSL at my spelling! Srry, ABM. Cerys was my MW too- lucky me)

VeniVidiVickiQV · 02/01/2007 18:17

rather than be hurt by it.

Lulu - have you read the other thread? I'm not sure its as clear cut as everyone simply "attacking daisy".

tiktok · 02/01/2007 18:18

Flack, some of these things have been measured. For instance, there is a measurable difference between the risks of some conditions for the baby who is partially bf, and the one who is fully bf. Breastfeeding has a 'dose response' and if you search the literature you'll see a number of papers which have tried to quantify it....but results differ quite a lot, depending on the setting.

Maybe the best paper, and the one I use in these sorts of discussions, is this one which only looks at gastric illness and ear infection.

It would not make sense to suggest that two bf a day have no benefit (compared to fully formula feeding) though I don't know if anyone has looked at it specifically. We know that any breastmilk has antibodies - good - and is tailor-made to nourish the baby - good - and will satisfy thirst and hunger in a physiologically appropriate way - also good.

In any case, breastmilk is more than the milk! It is part of the mother's relationship with her baby and if she enjoys giving it to the baby, then yay! for her

nothercules · 02/01/2007 18:19

The trouble is most mums get told tosh by people claiming to know what they are talking about so if you come on here and talk to people who are more knowledgeable then you are bound to be questioned as most feel so strongly about correct and accurate information being given to people who want to breastfeeed.

I have questionnede and complained about the head hv at my gps who also gave training to gps on breastfeeding and teh other hvs. 2 and a half years ago she'd never heard of giving solids at 6 months and refused to listen to me. Never heard of teh WHO recommendations.

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