Serious question: why ^are^ many of the pro-b/f amongst you so rabid?

[Pruni]

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Have skimmed this thread, and am possibly alone or in a minority group when I say that I breastfeed, but use the occasional bottle of formula also. Yes, I would describe myself as a 'passionate breastfeeder' and am loving feeding dd2 myself. Breastfeeding apparently releases 'feel good' hormones so it's no surprise then that I feel good breastfeeding. And no, it hasn't been a walk in the park - cracked, bleeding nipples in the early days and 3 lots of pretty awful mastitis, but I'm still here and happily feeding, thanks to support from my GP and other mumsnetters. Laughingly referred to myself as the 'breastfeeding warrior' to dh when dd2 was newborn!

So why do I do the occasional bottle of formula? Well, frankly, sometimes my time is limited to get on the breast pump and I need to leave dd2 for a short time while I go shopping/get my hair done, whatever. Does it make me feel guilty? No. Does it make me a poor mum? No.

Whilst I admit to being a 'passionate breastfeeder', parenting is about so many other issues. Personally, I find that my patience levels with a demanding toddler and 5 month old are pretty low at the moment, and I get more sense of achievement from being a calm, controlled and together mum than I do breastfeeding, much as I love it.

Pruni I can't believe that you didn't realise that the use of the term "rabid" was offensive and bound to bring out a great deal of evidence of disrespect for bf and bfeeders.
shall I flag some up for you?
OK
we are "rabid". not all bfeeders, no BUT "MANY" of us.
a bit manic
fascist.
self-congratulatory
holier than thou

why is it OK to make that kind of comment?

to quote jimjams: - "What I've found over years of mumsnet use is that when someone provides some sort of sweeping generalisation if you describe your situation they'll say "oh, well I didn't mean you" (and meanwhile you've seen read/have been ranting/sobbing etc) I do tend to have a reflex in place now where I will argue against any sweeping generalisation no matter what my actual views are on the subject, because I agree its damaging."

yes it's damaging to judge a group of people in this way.

here's the news - people are individuals and have their motivations for doing things or behaving in particular ways.

I am passionate about bf because I believe it matters. because I care about babies and women. because I have read a lot of the research and understand the benefits both. because I know, for example, that bf can give a tremendous health advantage to otherwise underpriviliged children. that it reduces the risk of cot death. that it has very significant effects onb the health of babies that last into their adult lives.

I care because I know that the majority of women who give up bf regret it. because I read their stories on mumsnet all the time and hear their stories in my professional life. I care because we live in a very anti bf culture where support for bf is abysmal. where formula companies and HCPs excuse our lack of support for bf by saying that it doesn't matter, that formula is just because people like you, pruni, got crappy support and still feel shit about it years afterwards. you and many thousands like you.

but of course I am deluding myself. I don't feel this way for any of those reasons.
I don't care about the babies and the women, not really. I am just fooling myself.
I am just foaming at the mouth, because I am a bit "student" about these things.
I am just a fascist.
I am a bit of an inadequate mother and just need to make myself feel better.
I take pleasure in making others feel guilty.
what should I do then? If everything I do is so bloody misjudged? should I just say - oh well, it doesn't matter, breastfeeding rates don't matter. it doesn't matter that women aren't supported. it doesn't matter the effect on babies health. it doesn't matter that women feel shit about having ot give up because they aren't supported. it doesn't matter that they feel shit about it years afterwards.
these bfc's who give up their time and energy - they should just give it up.
because whatever we do, we are in the wrong.
well, fuck it. so much for the bloody sisterhood eh?
I shall go back to preparing my breastfeeding class for tomorrow, and try not to think about the fact that so many of you think that just by teaching women the BEST yes the BEST way to feed their babies, just by encouraging them when the whole bloody culture conspires against it, I am a fascist and a Nazi.
fuck it.
fuck it all.

Aaah, Noddyholder's sweet voice of reason. I love you Noddy.

I guess that the rabidness happens from people who perceive the breastfeeding/bottlefeeding debate as a public health issue, similar to the vaccination/non-vaccination debate.

My view is that these things are personal choices and I for one can't work up enough rabidity about other peoples choices.

I have been thinking about why I was so passionate about b/f with my kids. And I realised something I want to share.
Since the age of 12 I have been mercilessly and consistently teased, bullied and tormented about the size of my tiny breasts. It happened at school - and you know what? The worst culprits were other girls.
Even as an adult, 'bigger' girls have taken the piss, and made me feel like less of a woman for something that I have had no control over. Well, do I have to describe the utter magic of being able to b/f 3 big birth-weight boys with these witches tits that caused me nothing but crap all my life?
They bloody well worked! Beautifully, for over a year at a time. And for the first time I felt proud of who I was and felt like a 'real' woman.
It makes me very sad and angry that some women (and this is not aimed at anyone on here, just an observation in life) will use their breast size to gain attention and yet eschew the whole idea of using those puppies for their primary purpose, because of vanity, because of lack of support or because somehow western society has decreed that it's 'not quite nice' to stick your nipple into a hungry infant's mouth.
Sorry for the rant.

'you'll smophter your baby with those tits' is what i got told once.

i'll never forget my mother and my aunt analysing my weight post pegnancy and my mom saying 'oh well a good stone of that will be her breasts!' they ain't that big woman!

see tinyteats, you can't win either way!

Great post of 12:58 last night,Flighty.
Great post!

As you state so articulately,do we sweep all the overwhelming evidence that formula is a dodgy choice {to say the least} under the carpet to spare hurt?

Custy seems to think that unless we do so,we are 'letting down the sisterhood'.

That is the oddest thing I have ever heard.

So patronising formula feeders on the head,smiling kindly and saying 'There there dear,it's all the same,as long as you love your baby' is the best way to demonstrate solidarity is it???

Ladies,breastfeeding is a feminist issue.

But moondog saying "oi you you fed your baby junk" is hardly helpful is it. It's obviously going to get people's backs up- and does come under the definition of rabid. And completely forgets that there are people on here who have been forced to use that "junk".

It doesn't suggest that you want to help people breastfeed at all- there are more useful ways of doing that. It suggests that you just want to make yourself feel better than the formula feeding sisterhood.

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I can't better Jimjams' post, so I won't try. I am very pro-breastfeeding but find some of the posts on here just awful in their smugness (by on here I mean MN in general, not this thread particularly). I do realise though that for every "rabid" post there are several fantastic supportive ones, so it's not possible to lump bfers together.

hear hear moondog - we shouldn't be apologists for challenging what is simply an english/ western cultural norm. bf'ing isn't in vogue here but around the world things are very different - also i remember the boycott nestle movement 15 years ago to try and stop formula milk being sold in third world countries and although that was to do with combating expolitation of poverty - i do think it is interesting. it is important women in the uk are empowered, supported and informed to make choices about the way they feed their babies without pressure either to give up bf'ing before they want to or cont feeding if they don't want to - guilt seems to be a big part of parenting and maybe we should be kinder to ourselves and each other but that doesn't mean uncomfortable truths should be ignored for fear of offence - or am i just a big hairy hippy? i was alone in the mums i know in cont to feed after 6m and often felt i had to be less pos about the experience of ext feeding as i sensed discomfort from my peers...

Well I would agree with that Socci- but its the way something's presented I guess. If I was to have a 4th child (heaven forbid) I would be very interested in ways in which to try and ensure a good supply, and would be grateful to anyone who gave that advice. I wouldn't be interested in reading about what a failure I was compared to people who'd tried just that little bit harder (yeah right) if, as in the case with ds3, it didn't happen.

Advice -- good

Judgemental crap-- bad

The majority of threads fall into the first - advice - bracket, but the judgemental crap ones (junk etc) undo some of that good work. Sad because the biggest advice givers (like mears and tiktok say) do seem to try very hard not to get judgemental and I would think their contribution is valued by everyone and not considered rabid.

So what do you say then Jimjams??

Don't you think that people deserve to know about the implications of giving their infants things that are supposed to be beneficiial?

I don't take part or read immunisation threads,but I gather that various MNers {yourself included? Am not sure}alert people to the dangers associated with vaccines.

I have had my children immunised because I felt it was right for me. I would however like to know if it wasn't a great choice. In retrospect,it's obviously too late,but would it be better that I didn't know at all??

I fail to see the logic of your argument.

Moreover,this is one facet of the whole breastfeeding/formula feeding argument.

I can and do offer plenty of what is broadly defined as 'support' in other situations.

In RL,it is a subject I never bring up unless asked. I am surrounded by bottlefeeders (yes,some are even friends!!( and am sure that 90% of them neither now,nor care how I feel.

The internet however allows one the luxury of expounding one's personal opinions at length.

People seem to think that if one is a passionate breastfeeder it is somehow indecent to be anything other than thoroughly pleasant,anodyne and empathetic on all occasions,perhaps as some sort of penance for having the temerity to actually succeed at breastfeeding.

Don't get it.

moondog you are once again wilfully misinterpreting the situation to suit your own agenda.

here's what happened.
you found an interesting article that you wanted people to read and you posted it on mumsnet.
they didn't respond in the numbers you wanted so you retitled it to sound much more inflammatory and aggressive and you got a response. you simply did not care about who that hurt in the process, because as you said 'it got people talking'. (and crying, but hey...)

i do not want to be patted on the head and told that formula is great, nor do i want to be slapped in the face with information that cannot do anything other than mortify me.

i do not demand that you sweep valuable information under the carpet, and nor, frankly does anyone else.

i would prefer, however, that you are considerate to the breadth of people who use this site and their many and varous circumstances when it comes to titling a thread such as that one. your lack of compassion astounds me.

Moondog- of someone posts a question asking for advice on say the age to give MMR. I would reply saying that the measles component is slightly more likely to work post 15 months. I wouldn't say what they should do- because the converse is of course that if you delay vacicnaiton then you leave yourself at risk of catching MMR for that much longer.

I am happy to explain why I haven't vaccinated ds2 and ds3 yet- and would argue against the implication that that made me selfish.

I would NEVER, have NEVER told anyone what they should do with their own child. How on earth could I? I don;t know their family histories or circumstances.

When asked about the safety of say the MMR I will reply that best guesstimates are that around 7% of autistic children regressed following MMR and potential risk factors are....... Will also point our that that number is very small, so without additional risk factors the risk is tiny indeed. I would argue that the risk to my family is far higher but would not extrapolate that to others.

If you ever read my posts on vaccination you will find that they argue that vaccination damage can occur,destroys lives, and that those damaged children matter, but not that it is widespread or that no-one should be vaccinating. I myself probably will vacinate ds2 and d3 as they get older (singly, and not against everything- tetanus definitely, measles possibly, men c possibly if they go to uni)

Moondog- of someone posts a question asking for advice on say the age to give MMR. I would reply saying that the measles component is slightly more likely to work post 15 months. I wouldn't say what they should do- because the converse is of course that if you delay vacicnaiton then you leave yourself at risk of catching MMR for that much longer.

I am happy to explain why I haven't vaccinated ds2 and ds3 yet- and would argue against the implication that that made me selfish.

I would NEVER, have NEVER told anyone what they should do with their own child. How on earth could I? I don;t know their family histories or circumstances.

When asked about the safety of say the MMR I will reply that best guesstimates are that around 7% of autistic children regressed following MMR and potential risk factors are....... Will also point our that that number is very small, so without additional risk factors the risk is tiny indeed. I would argue that the risk to my family is far higher but would not extrapolate that to others.

If you ever read my posts on vaccination you will find that they argue that vaccination damage can occur,destroys lives, and that those damaged children matter, but not that it is widespread or that no-one should be vaccinating. I myself probably will vacinate ds2 and d3 as they get older (singly, and not against everything- tetanus definitely, measles possibly, men c possibly if they go to uni)

Aitch,I told you,don't lay your guilt trip on me.I am a stranger amongst thousands,not your midwife,health visitor or best friend.

What I think shouldn't matter to you.If it does then Iwould really advise against getting into conversations with strangers.

As I said before,I am sorry that you were/are upset but demanding apologies and/or retractions form me is not the way forward,because

a] You won't get one

b] Even if you did,it is apparent that it wouldn't resolve your issues.

You don't want to be 'slapped in the face' with information you say. Is it the information your object to or the imaginary slap in the face???

Do you want to know the truth about immunisations,formula,car seats,going out to work or do they all come under the broad umbrella of Things That Might Upset Me????

Idf formula is a 'dodgy choice'what are those of us who cannot breastfeed to do.Suggestions please

"But moondog saying "oi you you fed your baby junk" is hardly helpful is it."

Jimjams, do you see that even saying quite baldly "formula is junk" (not particularly the way I'd choose to put it in all but a few contexts) is not the same thing as saying "oi you you fed your baby junk". Recasting it that way just makes it easier to knock down in a debate (i.e. it's a straw man), but it's not the same thing. Even if some vulnerable FF parents translate it into that in their heads (a real risk in social/support contexts, and the reason why it's inappropriate in all but a 'bigger picture'-discussion context), that's still not what's actually been said.

Ironically you're probably setting up people's expectations of being judged negatively by BFers (by recasting the kind of thing that's actually said into that sort of aggressively judgmental personal comment in order to knock it down more easily) - therefore making it more likely that they will feel judged.

Honestly, the ratio of insensitive, over the top comments about BF I hear about, to those I've actually witnessed over the last few years, is about 999:1. I wonder what the effect of being told in advance they're going to be judged negatively by BF parents is on new parents who FF, when it comes to them interpreting things that are said to them? I think it probably becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy - after all if you already know, from things you've heard about all those rabid extremists, what the average BF parent is thinking (miraculously so many people seem to be sure of this), you don't need to listen to what they actually say, you already know what they mean! And of course they can then go on to be reported as negative and judgmental as well - what they've actually said and done doesn't matter, does it - everyone knows what they really meant. And so it goes on...

what I would never do is post a thread saying "oi all you vaccinators you're damaging your kids injecting cancer causing agents into them" or whatever (that cancer causing bit is made up btw- I've never really looked at more than vaccination and developmental disorders in susceptible children, because I'm interested in the risk to ds1's siblings rather than waht everyone else is doing), which I think was the style of your junk thread.

Pruni, hopefully you will get to the stage I am at and never read a stupid, smug comment again. Last week I realised that some people who are so 'passionate' and smug actually have nothing at all to ever worry about, and that is why they never see the other side of the coin. They have trivial crap to worry about though. So why bother listening?

noddyholder- you should beat yourself wiith a big stick repeatedly.

Not being drawn into this as I still don't care enough about it. Think scummy yesterday and tamum today have succinctly expressed the problem people have with some of the ways breasfeeding is represented on mumsnet. DitCH The smugness and all would be happiness and light.

aND WITH That I'M OFF TO Worry aboout wee- ds1 is playing with the capital keY- a grEEN liGHT comes on.

no, jimjams, nor would I say "you anti immunisers are militants, fascists, nazis, rabid, holier than thou, and trying to make up for your otherwise inadequate parenting, coming on here,foaming at the mouth and making us all feel guilty".
that level of "debate" is not acceptable in a civilised society. it's damaging.

shame on you, moondog. i have only ever been polite to you about this and you have repeatedly been rude and dismissive of me. shame on you for wilfully misunderstanding what i have politely and calmly tried to express, and shame on you for speaking to me in such a manner.