Page 11 | Serious question: why ^are^ many of the pro-b/f amongst you so rabid?

Heathcliffscathy · 27/08/2006 01:01

so i bf ds until he was ten months but mix fed him from four months (one bottle at bedtime).

i am a semi-crap mum? sort of not good enough? pretty bad but not totally reprehensible.

I like moondog a lot. fuck it she stands by her shit.

but i'm loving your posts aitch and custy, couldn't agree more with yours.

in the end moondog, junk is as nothing compared to underminding your sisters.

and pruni this one does the same.

i'm sick of seeing words like rabid, emotional, hormonal, or my personal least favourite 'hysterical' used in a context exclusively directed at women. fuck that shite.

if it was men, the exact same emotions would be about assertiveness, healthy aggression or not even commented on.

sancerre · 27/08/2006 01:01

Me too, I don't want to patronise, or be harsh/rude.
for you aitch.
It's not the be-all-and-end-all though! (which might be patronising, I dunno. Tone > online chat > not always good! sorry)

hunkermunker · 27/08/2006 01:02

Agree totally, Sophable.

Jimjams2 · 27/08/2006 01:02

every time i hear the word hysterical I will think of you now sophable. Until the dau I die

Jimjams2 · 27/08/2006 01:03

dau? day!

JennT · 27/08/2006 01:04

GO TO BED STOP POSTING I CAN'T KEEP UP!

sancerre · 27/08/2006 01:04

aitch, actually I genuinely don't.
Moondog's not a troll, and she stands by what she said.
I guess Sophable's right, undermining other mums (accidentally or not) is low in a way, but MD is honest, upfront, I totally respect that.

Heathcliffscathy · 27/08/2006 01:06

wow. hmmm. you know it was about wombs being unleashed and running rampant through women's bodies jimjams....hysteria that is? so i'm not sure....but frankly anything that reminds you of me must be ok.

SherlockLGJ · 27/08/2006 01:07

Jerry

They are still here Jerry

Jimjams2 · 27/08/2006 01:08

I now sophable, I just keep stumbling onto threads with you discussing hysteria, or others discussing you discussing hysteria, so it's now kind of entwined.

aitch71 · 27/08/2006 01:13

tish and pish, sancerre, am not patronised in the slightest.

i do know that it's not the be all and end all but there was a time not so very long ago when i was completely, utterly, monumentally, overwhelmingly heart-broken about it and god knows if i'd read that 'junk' post then it would have tipped me over. i can't bear that someone else might have come on here to lurk on the breastfeeding advice threads (as i did a few times when i was desperate for some definitive advice) and seen that. i have a friend who had a breast refusing son was hovering dangerously close to a breakdown (we were lucky to have each other at the time, actually) over ff-ing and expressing and everything so i kinda do take things like that very personally, almost on both our behalfs.

i'm more a 'if you win their hearts, you'll win their minds' kind of a person, whereas obviously moondog cares more about facts than feelings. it's fine. horses for courses. i think there's room for caring about both, myself.

aitch71 · 27/08/2006 01:17

oh, and i don't completely know what a troll is but i do think that moondog knew when she posted that it would upset ff-ers and that she wasn't bothered. she did say that she had posted under a more anodyne title and garnered little response, so she knew what she was doing. you might respect that she stands by that decision, but i don't. not that it matters, her rude and dismissive responses to me indicate that she has not respect for me either.

nearlythree · 27/08/2006 12:24

aitch, I so know how you feel, I nearly went off my head over not bf dd1, I used to sit in front of Mnet looking at threads on how great bf is and how crap ff is (the comment that stayed with me the most was 'one cup of formula equals one cup of poison' - this from a health proffessional) and I used to cry and cry. Not very healthy, but I was locked in despair.

Unless someone knows what that is like you can't expect them to care. I posted somewhere that not bfeeding is something you need to grieve over - it's not a bereavement, and I'm not claiming it's anything like as bad, but you have to let go of an image of motherhood that you had and accept something different. And like getting over any loss, it takes time and understanding.

Personally I'd much rather be made to feel weird for extended bf (although actually I never was with dd2) than be made to feel like I'd failed my precious child, who I claim to love so much I'd die for.

fattiemumma · 27/08/2006 12:31

i am SOOOOO not reading this thread.

all i will say is that FFeeders, take anything Moony says with a bit of salt.
she is the BF police im afraid and is very aggressive in her opinions regarding the merits of formula feeding.

fireflighty · 27/08/2006 12:58

Just wondering where the needs of future mums who might get to BF with better support and information, and a more restricted FF industry, fit into people's views of how BF and FF should be talked about? A lot of the discussion about BF at a 'society level', things like the Ecologist article, are aimed at speaking harsh truths to change a society-level attitude to infant feeding which despite all the scientific evidence leads to a situation in which far more babies get formula than get breastmilk.

Meanwhile a lot of the reasons why people seem to feel the issue should be tiptoed round on here seem to be focused on the feelings of people who've already ended up having to FF despite wanting to BF (for a variety of reasons, some of which of course are medical and would never change). Is there a kind of conflict of interest (in terms of how they want feeding to be talked about) between parents who've already got past the stage when there was more than one possible outcome (they are now FF, for whatever reason, and that's that for them), and those who are still to go through feeding an infant?

I came to the conclusion quite a long time ago, like quite a few people, that a change of attitude at a society level, a change in the fundamental way we look at formula versus breastmilk (i.e. they're not virtually as good as each other) is needed before health professionals and people in general take seriously the value of babies being breastfed (leading to them making serious efforts to support and help mums who want to BF). I'm personally convinced that that would help hugely to reduce the number of people going through the experience of FF when they wanted to BF - and going through that grieving process and so on. As parents we need to get a bit angry - with the health service, with an unregulated formula industry etc. - for letting parents and babies down.

But meanwhile at a local level, particularly in purely social or support situations, there are some things it's just inappropriate to say - that's when we filter out the harsh ways of putting things even if at a political/social level we think they need to be said. So a forum like this is tricky because it's a bit of a mixture of several different situations. If it went to one extreme or the other, so it was either all harsh comments about FF, or all rose-tinting to make people who FF feel better, it would be equally wrong.

LaDiDaDi · 27/08/2006 13:01

I dislike the title of this thread, just as I disliked the title of Moondog's controversial thread. I do wonder if Pruni perhaps used the word rabid as a sneaky reference to Moondog in specific? Just a thought...

I also wonder if there is any research into feeding method and risk of pnd? From the feelings that other mumsnetters express and my own feelings it's clear that not successfully breastfeeding, defined by whatever personal criteria you had before starting, gives rise to a lot of sadness. I wonder if mums who are't successful at bf are more at risk of pnd than those who were successful or who ff through choice?

harpsichordcarrier · 27/08/2006 13:02

my god, I really, really wish I had not read this thread.
for the first time ever, a thread on here has made me cry. and, bizarrely, throw up.
in fact I wish I had never come onto this site.
Jesus Christ, do you really think bf advocates have no feelings?
that it is OK to insult them. to call them names? to say such vile and hurtful things about their motivations?
I really can't post anymore because I am too upset and may say something I might regret.

LaDiDaDi · 27/08/2006 13:10

Good points firefly. Excellent post!

I have said before that I think that the benefits of breastfeeding need to be taught in schools. It could easily be part of GCSE science for the hard facts bit and then the softer issues such as support to women, why people make the feeding choices that they do could be discussed in personal social education (not sure if that's the term for it these days but you know what type of lesson I mean). If it was talked about at this early age then I think that the subject would be far less emotive because very few would have experienced wanting to breastfeed and ending up formula feeding therefore the hard facts about the benefits of breastfeeding, which are vital for mums to know, could be got across without upsetting people.

Original poster

Pruni · 27/08/2006 13:14

Message withdrawn

OP posts:

noddyholder · 27/08/2006 13:16

I think some of the people you are talking about(pruni)just get carried away with the sense of achievement they feel from bf'ing and want to convert everyone and share their great discovery. Normal really although some do go overboard and I suspect they have little else to crow about.Breast is best without a doubt but better to support and advise those trying to do it than be all holier than thou (which I can't say I've noticed too much of on here)

sancerre · 27/08/2006 13:19

little else to crow about??

Cheers Noddyholder! PMSL!

noddyholder · 27/08/2006 13:22

Glad I made you laugh sancerre Don't take it the wrong way but I do find your average mum who bf's her baby doesn't really talk about it

mears · 27/08/2006 13:25

Breast feeding threads are the hardest ones to post advice on. You tread the line between being helpful and being called a fscist.

I have a friend in RL who really wanted to breast feed but couldn't do it. I supported her throughout each birth pregnancy and birth. Baby no.3 she managed to breastfeed and was delighted with herself. Search for Jaspers threads and you'll see the information she got. I truly believe she breastfed due to the advice she got here on mumsnet.

There are other mothers here who have managed to continue breastfeeding due to the advice they got and that is wonderful. But in amongst it all there always is some criticism of the por breastfeeding posters.

I personally loved breastfeeding and wish that more women could have the positive experience that I had. It is possible and for some women the advice here helps. For others it is seen as pressurising them for not succeeding.

We all make our own choices on the information we have to hand. I personally do not have an issue with women chosing to formula feed.

The best thing is when women are honest and say my lifestyle does not allow me to follow through the things I need to do to make breastfeeding work.

If a woman comes on here and says I cannot breastfeed because of X medication then I will inform her if that is incorrect. Is there anything wrong with that? I don't want her to make a decision based on incorrect information.

Women need to make INFORMED choices. I do not take issue with anyone who then choses to formula feed. I hate it when women are forced to formula feed due to crap advice/information.

I am the same with any other topic so it has nothing to do with hormones or anything else.

aitch71 · 27/08/2006 13:26

ladidadi and fireflighty,
couldn't agree more. with regards to the societal problem of not enough people beign willing to try bfing, primary and secondary education would be a good place to start. likewise more funding for more support for bfing mums in trouble is essential.

that's the macro-environment, and this is a micro-environment made up almost exclusively mothers, and to be honest from what i've seen it's mostly mothers who have wanted to breastfeed and either it's been possible or not.

so i agree with fireflighty that while it is important, nay essential, to discuss the issue of the quality of formula, some consideration of the very real emotional issues surrounding failure to breastfeed would be an act of kindness that shouldn't be too hard to muster.

PinkTulips · 27/08/2006 13:26

LaDiDa, teaching it in schools, sadly, doesn't necessarily make a differnace. my dp's sister studied the benefits of bf-ing as part of one of her subjects in the Leaving Cert (Ireland) and while she was positively affected by it she seems to be the minority... i'm not sure of the exact figures but i don't think the % of women bf-ing is higher over here than england.

i believe it needs to start even younger than that in the home and family. i was raised with the attitude that bf was the normal and natural way to feed a baby and never even considered not trying, whereas people raised by mothers who believe there is no differnace and who regard women who bf beyong the first week as a bit odd will have the same views.

was saddened when feeding dd when my cousin asked his mother if she fed him to hear her say 'no x i didn't, you weren't getting to grips with it fast enough (she was ff by day 2) and it doesn't make a differance anyway, your fine and healthy' so now her son will have that attitude to bfing for life