Breastfeeding - a contentious rant!

[jenbird]

I may get flamed for this post but here goes:

I am very pro choice when it comes to breastfeeding. I have breastfed all 3 of my babies and I plan on doing the same with this one. However I would never say just because that is my choice it is right for everyone. I understand that different people have different needs and that actually although nutritionally BF may be best if it is making the mother incredibly anxious or miserable then I believe it is not necessarily the best thing for that mother or baby.
What I do hate though is people who say "I just didn't have enough milk" when actually what they mean is "I tried breastfeeding for 2 days, I didn't like it, it didn't work for me and I have decided to bottle feed".
This has happened very recently in my life. A very good friend said she couldn't feed her baby as she didn't have any milk. The reality was that the baby was unsettled a lot and she wasn't sure what to do. Her mother said she "needed" a bottle so she went with that. Her baby is sleeping pretty well at night now and all is fine.
Breastfeeding your first can be really hard work. It hurts, it comes with a huge uncertainty and you seem to spend an inordinate amount of your time feeding but it does have it's rewards too and once you get going it is far easier.
I just hate those flippant comments about not having any milk when actually it is just about choice. Don't devalue the effort I put in just because you didn't want to go down that path.

I obviously can't say this to my friend in RL so I bite my tongue.

Rant over. Hope I don't offend anyone. If I do blame it on crazy lady hormones!

''this is only a very recent thing, the law has been changed to try to stop the damage caused by Formula to breastfeeding rates. Still the formula companies try to get round this by creating follow on milks. So long as hospitals continue to dole out FREE formula to women then formula will continue to damage breastfeeding. Breastfeeding works on a supply/demand basis. If your hospital starts offering your baby formula then your supply suffers until one day you are stuck - you have to buy formula to continue to feed your baby''

In the hospital dd was born, we where asked if we were planning on bf or ff. If you were bf then you were paired up with a support worker to help. If you were ff you were offered to be shown how to make the formula. The bf rates for the area went up. The funding is now going to be cut

Yes yes Duelling, and of course it?s entirely coincidental that your facts allow you that warm glow of superiority?

This may come as a shock, but some of us disagree with your facts and made different decisions on that basis. Yes that means we disagree with the WHO etc. In my opinion the evidence for the benefits of breastfeeding (or the risks of formula to use the current framing) is weak, conflicting and riddled with confounders. If there are benefits (or risks) in my view the magnitude of those benefits or risks is marginal. The increased risk to your child of driving them around in a car, for example, is without doubt significantly greater. Yet there is not exactly a public health campaign to stop people putting children in cars. You may believe that disagreeing with the conventional wisdom makes us stupid or just plain wrong? the medical profession could never be wrong? - but we are all entitled to form our own opinions about the breastfeeding evidence. And about every other decision that affects our children.

As for social conditioning, it always fascinates me that those who dismiss other people?s opinions and decisions on that basis invariably ignore the fact that they are equally subject to social conditioning. It?s the equivalent of saying ?You did X because you have a human brain?.

This Normality crap needs to stop. It?s nothing but a rehash of the old division between Classicism and Romanticism ? dividing humans into the body which is all about instincts and the brain which is all about reason. It?s a nonsense. Yes breast is normal. So is every other bloody thing that human beings do. We are not ?just? mammals. We are human mammals. Every socially conditioned thing we do is as normal as every instinctive thing we do. Every rational thing we do is equally normal. So when we create formula using our tool-wielding opposing thumbs and our rickety rational brain for socially conditioned purposes ? that?s as normal as human beings get. Stop faffing around trying to reframe the debate and just accept that sometimes people just disagree.

"I feel great sympathy for every mother who choses to FF because they have had a drip drip drip of negativity about Breastfeeding and I wish there was a way to reverse that situation."

Every mother? Really? That's pretty patronising.

You don't know that that's the reason every mother chooses to FF- that's one hell of an assumption.

I live in east London- every mother I know BFs. BFing is everywhere, and FF is frowned upon; what on earth could be my reasons for choosing to FF?

The changes in law are very recent. Promotion of follow on milk show computer generated laughing babies with protective glows around them saying its the closest thing - no its no where close.

My hospital used to have a milk kitchen where you could help yourself to formula. You had to go to that kitchen and get it, they wouldn't get you anything as they only helped bfers. Now that's been abandoned and their official line is no formula regardless, though I think they do in very nasty circumstances. Want to ff - bring your own, worried you may need to ff - bring your own. I can understand this from a purely money saving in the nhs point of view without the bf/ff debate.

Oh, and Sioda- will you marry me?

In my opinion, simply refusing to educate or discuss ff at ALL in hospital isn't going to achieve a lot.

Haven't the nct recently changed their stance a bit on supporting all feeding mothers?

So, do I have your sympathy, then? Having BF DS for a year, I gave up with DD after 13 days when she had not regained her birth weight because she just would not feed. And I mean would not. As an experienced breast feeder, I tried every trick I knew, as did the hospital staff and midwives. So, I could starve her or use a bottle. Broke my heart to do it but that was it.

i agree !!!!

In fact have thought the same of countless people myself

I just wish people would be honest and say "nah its not for me" rather than buy into the "not enough milk" thing

Have a look through the actual thread then and see why people don't do just that.

Jesus, does it matter?

I bf my two, I am still bfing DD at 14mo, because she WILL NOT drink milk from any other source. But that is all I am interested in. Other people's kids? As long as they aren't filling their bottles with Special Brew, I'm not really fussed.

I am pleased (and lucky) that I have found breastfeeding really quite easy. I certainly don't need any recognition - i have two happy, healthy kids, that'll do me. I haven't slept in 14m, and I could do without MIL telling me I really ought to stop bf as it will mentally damage DD, but I'm not looking for a medal, and however anyone else has fed their DC has no bearing on what I have done with mine, and vice versa.

OP, if you're feeling so vulnerable, why come on MN and start a bf v. ff debate? You'd fare better entering a lion's den in Lady Gaga's meat dress...

worth a read for those interested in how the way we feed our babies has changed.

Amber just tell your nil to piss off

My hospital didn't dole out free formula, except to children in SCBU who needed it. And yes, I mean needed it for valid medical reasons, not because mothers wanted it. It's policy in my NHS trust not to give out formula. Perhaps you ought to contact your trust and ask them to change their policy if you think it's a contributory factor. But rainbow formula companies don't promote their newborn products now, only their follow on milks. And the NHS does a pretty good job of promoting bf. In my hospital you couldn't turn a corner without hitting a poster, leaflet, booklet, offer of free class etc for bf-ing. When discharged the midwives did not support ff because they are not allowed. The HV had a form for "supporting bf-ing mother" or "informing ff mothers of the risks of ff" - everything is geared towards supporting bfing. None of this makes a difference on individual level - if you want to and physically can bf, you will be able to.

rainbow it is the closest thing to breastmilk though. Putting aside the choice element, if a mother physically cannot breastfeed then surely formula is the next closest thing? If not, what is?!

amber your lady gaga analogy just made me snort my tea. Thank you.

If I concerned myself with how random strangers fed their children to the same extent as some of you I would go and see my GP. It is not normal to obsess about the actions of others.

Duelling, if you want to try to limit your judging, can I suggest you repeat the following phrase "It is none of my business".

Why do you think follow on milk was invented?

Expressed milk is closer then I believe weasel milk. Formula is a fantastic alternative but they say it's the closest/nearest thing to imply its similar when it is not at all close. Clever marketing.

I really don't care how people choose to feed their children but I do care about inaccurate information and poor support.

Sioda like I have said, I am not telling people they are harming their children by using formula (unless they mix it wrong of course) I am saying that the facts (Yes, it's actually factually correct) are that breastmilk is better for children than formula and breastfeeding has benefits for the mother too.

You are asking me to accept that people will disagree but to stop disagreeing myself?

Wednesday, I hadn't actually read the post where you give your own story. It seems your story is quite similar to my own RE a baby in special care, pumping and so on. I know how horrible that can be. I don't want to make people feel bad so I do understand some comments can be hurtful. I hope I have been clear that I am not judging women who have genuinely been unable to breastfeed and I am not trying to upset people personally.

tethersend you have mis-quoted me ... I said 'every mother who chooses not to breastfeed because they have had a drip drip drip of negativity about Breastfeeding" that was the full complete statement I made, that I feel sympathy for those who choose not to do it because they have been conditioned not to. Not that they choose not to do so because it hurts, or because they were abused, or because they genuinely have a medical reason but those who choose not to from the start because they have been made to feel negative about it and won't even try as a result.

I did NOT say that I believed that was why every mother doesn't breastfeed.

But if a mother has supply issues rainbow she's not going to be able to express breastmilk, is she? So formula is then the best alternative. Plenty of bf-ing mothers go on to use follow on milk when they have weaned their children off the breast.

We have similar stories in terms of our bf-ing attempts, duelling, I'll give you that.

I do believe breastmilk is best. I wanted, desperately, to bf my child. I beat myself up often enough that I didn't and couldn't. I don't need other people to do it to.

I didn't mean their own bm.

Yes, the commercials advertise follow on for when you're ready to move away from bm. Follow on is completely unnecessary for any baby.

"But if a mother has supply issues rainbow she's not going to be able to express breastmilk, is she? So formula is then the best alternative. Plenty of bf-ing mothers go on to use follow on milk when they have weaned their children off the breast. "

I believe the point is that the support should be there before the mother gets supply issues. The reason why many women 'don't have any milk' is because the baby is not feeding properly or frequently. These are simple things which can be sorted out in the first few days but often are not because of lack of support. Then the formula top-ups are suggested because 'the baby's blood sugar is low' or 'The baby isn't gaining enough in the first 48 hours of its life on planet earth' and so on... then the woman's supply is seriously compromised and there is no choice but formula.

If women were given the right help earliler then breastfeeding rates would increase - and women would breastfeed for longer. Sadly not all midwives are knowledgable enough and many do rely on formula within the first 3-5 days.

Which is why I feel awfully sorry for people who have had shit advice ended up formula feeding when they didn't want to, only to get judged by those who were successful in breast feeding. Like a final
kick in the teeth for a lot of women.

Wednesday - I really do apologise for making you feel awful, it's not my intention. I can see you had a really hard time (I was able to see my baby within 7 hours) and I don't want to make you feel any worse. If anything these discussions do teach me that I am far too judgemental too quickly and that I need to learn how to 'campaign' without turning people off. So I do apologise.

Expressed milk is breastmilk, not the next best thing. Or should mums who choose to give their babies expressed milk rather than direct from the breast feel awful too? And if that's really how you feel go rally behind milk banking. It's a fantastic service with not enough support and their numbers are dwindling.

And drseuss you have all my sympathy. Whilst my plans got dashed, they got dashed pretty damn quick. It must be awful to have gone through that once only to find it not happening a second time.