Breastfeeding - a contentious rant!

[jenbird]

I may get flamed for this post but here goes:

I am very pro choice when it comes to breastfeeding. I have breastfed all 3 of my babies and I plan on doing the same with this one. However I would never say just because that is my choice it is right for everyone. I understand that different people have different needs and that actually although nutritionally BF may be best if it is making the mother incredibly anxious or miserable then I believe it is not necessarily the best thing for that mother or baby.
What I do hate though is people who say "I just didn't have enough milk" when actually what they mean is "I tried breastfeeding for 2 days, I didn't like it, it didn't work for me and I have decided to bottle feed".
This has happened very recently in my life. A very good friend said she couldn't feed her baby as she didn't have any milk. The reality was that the baby was unsettled a lot and she wasn't sure what to do. Her mother said she "needed" a bottle so she went with that. Her baby is sleeping pretty well at night now and all is fine.
Breastfeeding your first can be really hard work. It hurts, it comes with a huge uncertainty and you seem to spend an inordinate amount of your time feeding but it does have it's rewards too and once you get going it is far easier.
I just hate those flippant comments about not having any milk when actually it is just about choice. Don't devalue the effort I put in just because you didn't want to go down that path.

I obviously can't say this to my friend in RL so I bite my tongue.

Rant over. Hope I don't offend anyone. If I do blame it on crazy lady hormones!

Dueling you state you're looked down on because you breastfeed yet in your earlier post you're judging people who ff. you can't have it both ways. Judge and be judged. Or rise above it and let people have their choices and rally against the system instead of them.

You're right in that bad advice should be fought against, but that bad advice runs on both sides of this debate. People get terrible advice whether they bf or ff, and the myths surrounding both are bloody stupid. And the system is very much weighted in favour of bfing, which I'm not criticising btw but it's very much ok to rally against poor advice given re bfing but not with FFing apparently.

if the facts make women feel like crap then that's not the fault of the facts nor the person giving them the facts, though I agree there's no point me going up to someone who is FF and telling them they are selfish.

I do agree with whoever said earlier that deciding not to breastfeed your child just because is a selfish act, it is! However, they are probably conditioned to be that way and that is a great shame. Those people who campaign to raise the rofile of breastfeeding and breastfeeding support are doing so because breastfeeding is a really important thing for a child and has been destroyed by the formula industry. Formula is not as good for your child as breastmilk - fact.

I do get annoyed by people who are offended by the breast is best campaing, breast IS best. Maybe it should be changed to breast is normal?

In my (anecdotal) experience women who breastfeed are constantly at the mercy of people who are trying to booby trap them. Almost every new mother I know was offered formula at some point while in hospital or shortly after leaving. Somehow there is a perception that that mothers are being constantly pressured by midwives to breastfeed yet this is certainly not my experience.

I will try to be less judgemental. I know that there is a story behind every FF child. I obviously don't know each individual's story but I do know that the vast majority of FF children are not FF for medical reasons.

Duelling So, it's okay for you to judge ff mothers but not for them to judge you? Does bf-ing somehow make you immune to judginess? And yes, you are judging ff mothers. And in doing so, you are helping to perpetuate the myths you claim to care so much about dispelling. It is because of judginess like yours that ff mothers say things like "I didn't have enough milk". And again, I'll say it, why is another mother's choice to ff any of your business? Why do you get to be the judge of whether their reason is good enough?

How is bf-ing dmaged by the ff industry? If anything it's biased towards encouraging bf-ing.

You will not improve the support mothers get by being judgey about peoples feeding choices.

What does the sexualisation of a womanks breasts have to do with it? If someone chooses not to bf because they don't feel comfortable with it, that is THEIR business, not yours. It does not affect your ability to bf your child if you choose to. Their choice has nothing whatsoever to do with you.

Good for you for fighting the bad knowledge you were given. However, I will say again, being judgey about ffing mothers is not going to help change the bad advice out there.

Breast milk is the ideal for children. I haven't heard anyone argue with that. Brestfeeding on the other hand isn't always best for the mother and baby. And, even if you make the assumption that it is best, their is still an element of choice and it is not up to you to decide what other mothers do.

Yes, there are health benefits to bf-ing. Nobody has said there aren't. Sometimes however there are benefits to be gained by by making the decision to ff. A happy mother makes a better mother. If bf-ing isn't working and is upsetting for the mother and baby, all the health benefits in the world aren't going to fix that.

The judginess that ffing mothers have to face is, IME, the biggest reason people "lie" about their reasons for giving up bf-ing. So, in making these jugements, you are helping to perpetuate these myths.

You can be pro-bfing without judging mothers who do not bf.

How are you likely to be looked down on? Show me one part of this thread that has judges you for bf-ing? FF-ing mothers are far more likely to be judged by others. You yourself are judging ff-ing mothers, yet expect to be immune to judgements from other people? Isn't that more than a little contradictory?!

But why is not bf selfish?
No one has said that formula is better then breastmilk
I don't like the 'breast is best'. I do perfer the Scottish 'Give it a try'

IME with breastfeeding what that the support I had great, really couldn't fault it. The only time anyone ever spoke to me about formula was when dd was on the childrens ward when I decided to switch to formula.

It's not the facts fanjo it's the judgemental crap spouted by some people seriously flick through some of these threads and look.

If people didn't feel so judged they wouldn't be do defensive.

I've got no problem with someone dispelling a myth or offering help at all.

Give help where is needed and wanted though.

DuellingFanjo - do you accept that just because a woman's reason for not breast feeding isn't medical, does not mean it isn't a valid and good reason not to breast feed?

" how is breast feeding damaged by the formula industry?" you're not serious.

"it's okay for you to judge ff mothers but not for them to judge you?"

no - I wasn't talking directly about FF mothers judging me but about the media, the formula industry etc. The press and so on. There is way more negative stuff printed in the press about breastfeeding than there is about FF. FF is seen as 'normal' in the papers, FF doesn't get the barrage of negative articles that breastfeeding does. FF mothers don't get asked to move from public areas for feeding their children.

"How is bf-ing dmaged by the ff industry? If anything it's biased towards encouraging bf-ing"

Over many years breastfeeding rates droped as the result of advertising/promotion of Formula. It is a trend which is hard to replace. Dolls are sold in shops with bottles in their mouths, feeding rooms are given bottles as their signage and so on. The fact that more mothers FF after a few weeks than BF is an indication of how FF has become more normal than breastfeeding.

"A happy mother makes a better mother. If bf-ing isn't working and is upsetting for the mother and baby, all the health benefits in the world aren't going to fix that."

Better breastfeeding support will help with happier breastfeeding. Women are put off by this general idea that breastfeeding ALWAYS hurts. It doesn't. Rather than just giving the option of formula we should be giving women more support. At the same time we need to tackle the reasons why so many women just don't bother even trying in the first place.

"You yourself are judging ff-ing mothers, yet expect to be immune to judgements from other people? Isn't that more than a little contradictory?! "

I am judging the society we live in which has made women not want to breastfeed.
I think all these areas need to be actively challenged.

Like I said, I don't want to be so judgemental but given that such a high percentage of women just don't want to bother it's my opinion that some of the FF mothers I see will be part of that percentage. Not that I would ever question them to find out if they are, I just don't believe that they are all FF for medical reasons. It's not statistically possible.

Breast is best most of the time and breast is totally normal all of the time. Hence the massive changes that came in with the equality act which was very sadly lacking up till that point. I don't think any pro ffers would ever disagree with that. But it's not the "facts" that make ffers feel awful - its the being told by random people they're the worst kind of mother's that upsets them. stats lead you to believe most mums are trying and giving up, either through bad advice or choice. But these people will most likely know the breast is best and normal mantra and read the literature but have made a choice. They don't need to be judged and looked down on any more than a woman breastfeeding does. No one should be as long as they're keeping their baby happy and healthy. Well healthy first, then happy.

Your anecdotal evidence is the total opposite to mine. Health visitors and midwives give up on non bfers round this way. Both of these things are wrong. Yes put breastfeeding first and yes give decent advice and help first, don't push FFing unless there's a valid medical reason but don't abandon ffers. It can't be that hard.

Well who why don't you have a look at some of the other threads on here to see what happens.

I don't want to breastfeed

Why

My choice I don't want to

Why why

Oh ok, a and b

They are shit reasons you are selfish and I feel sorry for your baby.

Only takes one comment like that and that person will never be honest again.

People with a genuine desire to help & increase breastfeeding only cause more problems by being judgemental.

I'm not pointing the finger in here to anyone, but we've all heard the comments and we've all read a few on here, so we really should be pulling together and stopping this.

Fanjo - I've heard rubbish said about breastfeeding and I just as vehemently object to that I can assure you.

Black I prefer the scottish one too! I also prefer one I've heard recently "every drop counts" so mothers know that every bit of breast milk helps. Then if they give up before the magic 6 month mark they know every little bit of milk has made a difference.

Yes rainbow I am serious. Formula is there as an alternative. It isn't cheap, you can't get it on prescription, you don't get offers on it etc, etc. Every carton of formula is plastered with the message breast is best and that breastmilk is better than the formula. Noone is forcing you to give your child formula if you don't want to. How is that damaging bf-ing? It's an alternative. A choice.

If you genuinely believe that then there is no way I can educate you using my iPad and one finger typing. Perhaps there is a need for more about bf to be on the curriculum.

AAAARRRGHHHHH the dolls and bottles thing.

I'm sorry but I had dollies with bottles and it had no bearing on whether I breastfed. Medical event had a bearing on whether I breastfed. People i know who had dollies with bottles didnt think about it at all when they breast or bottle fed. Even the friends I've referred to as über breast feeding types agreed that their dolly had no influence on them.

And a bottle on a door doesn't make me go "oooh, I should give baby a bottle" any more than the woman sign in a skirt makes me think I'm not a real woman unless I wear a skirt. I go "oh a baby feeding area".

I prefer to believe that most people are more intelligent that that.

Oooohhhhh I like the sound of the Scottish breastfeeding promotions.

"do you accept that just because a woman's reason for not breast feeding isn't medical, does not mean it isn't a valid and good reason not to breast feed? "

depends what the reason is.

Obviously I am not advocating forcing women to breastfeed.
I am advocating getting rid of this idea that there's something wrong with breastfeeding because you use breasts/because it always hurts/because my breasts will sag/because it's ikky/because my husband won't bond with the baby.

I am guessing I am fighting a losing battle.
I understand that my attitude is a bit too in your face.
I will work on not judging people, I already know that it's largely not their fault but the fault of those who are supposed to be helping them.
I will always judge someone who says they won't do it because 'it's a bit yuk' or who says 'bitty'.

Sorry for any offence.

To be fair the formula industry did do a lot of damage to breast feeding rates. Wasn't it the 50's when it was promoted that it was better then breastmilk?

I do believe thats why we have the laws that we have dealing with the promtion of formula.

Also, formula pre-6 months isn't advertised. They are not allowed to advertise it.

You don't know what another mother has gone through. You have no right to judge another person just because you don't agree with what they are doing.

You don't know what I went through. No amount of bf-ing support would have made a difference. I ultimately chose to give my DS formula rather than continuing to pump out what little milk I had. If you saw me out in public ffing my son, you would be judging my reasons not to bf without knowing them. Would you prefer it if I got a permission slip from my GP with my "valid medical reasons"? Would that make me ffing my son more acceptable to you?

I have never witnessed a bfing mother be judged for what they're doing. Even if other people have judged you, I have not, yet you are judging me and my choice. You don't know me. You don't know my issues or my reasons. I am not judging you and I would hope you'd extend the same courtesy to me, it appears not.

If more people who are going on about how formula companies are ruining bfing put half as much energy into promoting breastmilk banking the world may be in a lot more equilibrium and maybe it encourage more people to breastfeed than consider formula.

In an "I'm worried I won't be able to breastfeed, but at least I know if I cant there's a milk bank"

Not to mention Nestlé giving out free samples to mothers in hospital. My mil who bf her dc believes bf is now the inferior choice as formula has become so fashionable in dh's home country.

" Formula is there as an alternative. It isn't cheap, you can't get it on prescription, you don't get offers on it etc, etc. Every carton of formula is plastered with the message breast is best and that breastmilk is better than the formula. Noone is forcing you to give your child formula if you don't want to. How is that damaging bf-ing? "

this is only a very recent thing, the law has been changed to try to stop the damage caused by Formula to breastfeeding rates. Still the formula companies try to get round this by creating follow on milks. So long as hospitals continue to dole out FREE formula to women then formula will continue to damage breastfeeding. Breastfeeding works on a supply/demand basis. If your hospital starts offering your baby formula then your supply suffers until one day you are stuck - you have to buy formula to continue to feed your baby.

You should read 'the politics of breastfeeding' if you really are interested in learning about how formula has damaged breastfeeding all over the world.

Unfortunately bf supporters don't have spare millions to spend on promoting it like formula companies do.

But now they are not allowed to give out free samples. Most hospitals will only give formula in an emergancy. If you want to ff then you have to take your own.

Blackoutsun - I think you're right there. Though I also know my the late 70s formula was back as being seen as the worse alternative (my mothers and a friends mother's experience). I don't know how long the advertising ban has been in though.

rainbow I don't need you to educate me, I need you to show some respect for my feeding choice and my opinion. It appears your ipad and finger have failed to educate you in basic politeness.