Never thought BF counld be so hard

[Gina1981]

DD is over 8 weeks now and EBF, but I never thought it was going to be this hard!

Ive been to bf clinic twice this week as I've been so close to giving up! I've started many threads on here re feeding as its been so difficult!

After 8 weeks of question re poo colour, being unsettled bla bla I've now come to the conclusion that she isn't getting a full feed and snacking instead! Sol I'm now on a journey to resolve this! If I'm being honest in so tired and fed up I'm now thinking is any of this worth it!

I don't know how long to keep going until I lose my mind! I have 2 other DC and I hardly have any time for them!

Advice please xxx

Will try to post later, but don't give up yet :) Look on www.kellymom.com - and search for topics relating to foremilk etc. if that is something that's of concern. I do think though that you may find things getting easier soon - I really struggled with BFing DS1 and almost threw in the towel around 10 wks (as everyone said it took a couple of months to establish it etc. and I felt it was never going to get easier). FWIW is your DD gaining weight / weeing and pooing? and how often? What age are your other 2 kids? Do you have any support from partner/family / childcare? Do you want to continue BFing? Will get back to you later (when dinner not burning) and am sure someother very nice MNers will be along shortly to give you a pep talk.
HTH and big hugs - such a hard job x

My gut feeling is that she is getting too much foremilk and making her very windy, mainly from the bottom half, green runny poos, frequent feeding etc. Also have quite a fast let down which she has got better with dealing with! Her weight gain is good. She opens her bowels during a feed and after! I'm sure she is weeing but I change her so frequently i rarely have a really wet one!

They also think she isn't latching on properly which may be adding to everything! My dc are 12 and 5. DH works alot and hardy see him.

All I keep thinking about is if I put her on formula then I wouldn't gave any if the problems I'm having! Feel like I'm at breaking point!!

Gina, you need to make the decision you feel is best for you all but i was having problems feeding ds2 at 10 weeks and gave up. have had just as many problems bottle feeding so it didn't solve it. not saying it will be the same for you but in ds2's case formula didn't help. hope things settle down for you whatever you decide.

Hi again Gina
Like Dribbleface with DS1 I wanted to give up at 10 weeks (exhausted, nipple thrush, couple of bouts of mastitis/blocked ducts - plus the general concerns about 'am I doing it right'?) I read loads on kellymom and MN, and also googled a US BFing specialist (I think he was called Dr Jack Newman) who posted videos of latches etc. Also went to BFing groups, which I found demoralising as everyone else seemed to be enjoying it.

I hung onto the fact that DS was gaining weight, wetting nappies (half a dozena day, or thereabouts), pooing 2 times a day (although this is less an indicator - MWs say normal is anything between 3 times a day and once a week). My DS also had green, spinachy looking poos at about the 2mth mark - I read that this was something to do with the development of the gut, so ignored it. A week or so later, he did yellow ones again.

Re. the latch - I don't think DS1's was brilliant, but Jack Newman's website said that most babies in the 3+ month stage are strong enough to get enough nutrition from milk even if their latch ain't perfect - and as long as your nipples can bear it, so what if their technique isn't textbook?

I got to one evening where the formula was all made up and in a bottle, my mum and DH were supportive whatever I decided - and I burst into tears and took myself off to do another breastfeed. For me, I just didn't want to use formula. I believed it wasn't as good as breastmilk. Now I'm out of the woods I would never judge anyone's decision to use formula - but at the time, in that fog of hormonal tears and fears that's how I felt. (Although if you are considering mixed feeding, you might want to look at this blog www.thealphaparent.com and search for 'virgin gut' - it might make you want to continue exclusive BFing for another month at least).

WRT your baby - how much does she weigh? If she's about 10lbs I would imagine she'd be feeding about 7-8 times over 24 hours, with 3-4 hours between feeds? Are you feeding from both breasts? Do you offer 'the third side' (ie go back to the first breast - this is a good way of stimulating milk production and might allay your concerns that she is emptying the breast and getting the hindmilk etc.) FWIW, when I was concerned about all that business, one website I accessed suggested that the foremilk/hindmilk debate was far from concluded - at 10wks I would have expected DSs to feed for about 15-20mns per breast, then swap and swap back/offer '3rd side' if need be.

If you're at breaking point, can something else break? e.g. can you let the housework slide / eat more packet food for a week / get your 12 year old to supervise the 5 y.o.'s bath and bedtime stories (whilst you're in the baby's room listening out?)

From my experience, around the 12-14 week mark you definitely see an improvement - the baby feeds more quickly, your milk is strongly established etc. Also, by that stage you're 2-3 months from introducing solids, and it all seems more achievable.

I do hope this helps. At the end of the day, you're doing bloody brilliantly - if you do decide to do mixed feeding it shouldn't affect your supply too much (if you keep it to one feed per 24 hours) and you shouldn't beat yourself up about it too much. I don't think I could manage 3 kids and BF 'em all (and retain my sanity!)

Let us know how you get on.

After this mornings feed I am convinced that DD isn't latching on properly and with the fast let down she hasn't a hope in hell. What do I do???? How can I get her to latch on properly again??

I'm so desperate right now I could cry!!

lagrandissima the way you described the pop is exactly like DD did at 2am this morning. But she does have frequent green stools!! I'm convinced this has something to do with foremilk/hindmilk imbalance. I'm so mentally exhausted and physically I can't understand why we got off to a good start and it's all turned into this! I've got a lactating consultant coming in Monday but it's so long to wait!! U don't know if I can last that long!!

Tbh feeding is starting to hurt, my nipples, my back, etc. I'm just nit functioning.

Oh Gina, I havent much more to add than the others but couldn't not comment when u are feeling shit. Go and have good dam cry, sometimes we need to do that to feel normal again.

Latch issue - has she been checked for tongue tie?

Fast let down- same here and still the same with my dd who is 5 months. Kelly moms advice is good. My dd just comes off and on now to catch a breath. In the early days I did express a little before latching her on so she got the thicker milk then rather than the watery stuff that sprayed all over her (draw back is that u then create more milk due to supply/demand but I just froze it for when I wanted a day off!)

If you are really unhappy you need to do what's best for you.

What support are u getting?

I go to two baby cafes a week run by the nhs breastfeeding support group in my area- is there anything like that near you? They have been amazing and the people I meet are so supportive, I couldn't have got through the last 5 months without them. We're meeting outside of the group for dominoes pizza this afternoon as a couple of them are struggling a bit at the min- it's just nice to know you are no the minority- it WILL get better

Have a good cry, a cup of tea and some toast and take some deep breaths. You can get through this, what ever you decide, just try an relax and everything will come together x

Gina you sound almost exactly like me and I got a lactation consultant in as well who diagnosed tongue tie. I'm waiting for an appointment to get it snipped so can't yet comment on whether it will help. There is a list on the milk matters website with a list of the symptoms of a tie (can't link as on phone)

Sorry, posted too soon! Try and hang in there until Monday and see what she says. Hope things get better for you soon.

DD has been checked for Tongue tie and isn't! But will get the lady to check it again on Monday! I try to hand express for about 30secs so at least that takes off the first lot! My let down is so fast that she gulps and splutters, and with not being on properly she gives up after about 5 - 7 mins! Then she is so unsettled and what I assume wants more after an hour or so! Then the wind starts to come with green poo!

I desperately don't want to give up bf!

Btw I had a huge cry on the phone to the HV and am now in bf clinic for the 3rd time this week!!

Gina, I know you have posted a lot. Sounds like your confidence is way down low :( :(

Has anyone mentioned over supply to you?

It's just some of what you say ticks those boxes.....

Gina - your baby has good weight gain and is pooing regularly. That is fantastic!! She is doing well on the breast is she not?

DD2 was always very windy - we joke she farts & burps like a builder.

It sounds like your baby is feeding really well - babies can be very efficient and she will be learning to cope with your fast let down. DD2 was always a fast feeder - often feeding for 10 minutes max. Some babies feed little and often - have you tried a sling to free you up a little? Are you OK with feeding outside the home?

Sorry to hear you're having such a tough time! Infacol helps DD a lot with wind, might be worth a try?

I believe I have an oversupply too which I font know how to deal with it?? Any advice??

Gina, best thing would be to talk it through with someone on one of the bf helplines.

The signs of oversupply (and not all babies will show all of them, and not all the time):

• baby with rapid weight gain
• baby splutters sometimes with the force of the flow, sometimes coming off and crying
• mother often feels full, even after a feed
• green poo
• baby often unsettled between as well as during feeds
• baby seems to want to feed but is reluctant to stay on and struggles

It is easy to correct, except in really serious cases.

You damp down your production, by deliberately feeding on one side only in 'blocks' of 2,3,4,5 hours (sometimes even more than this but start off with 3-4 hours). Then after that block, you use the other side only, then back to the other side after that and so on.

This reduces production (it is the opposite of 'switch nursing' which increases production). The baby gets what he needs, but his intake is lower in volume.

If your baby is gaining weight more-than-well, and seems to have the other signs, then it is worth trying block feeding for a couple of days. If you feel uncomfortable on the unused side, v. gentle hand expressing may help, but only if you need to.

What do you think?

This - over supply - is more common than any of the other problems that tend to be (over)diagnosed, in my experience. I'd include tongue tie, reflux, colic in that list.

I would add that if she comes off after 5-7 mins, then wants more after an hour, that is normal with any baby. She does not need to be coaxed back onto the breast, and doing so creates its own problems, because the baby gets cross and upset. So if this is what's happening, just letting her pace herself might be enough to make things better for you. Babies can happily 'snack' and thrive - don't feel there is anything wrong in that :)

Just to say please please please don't feel bad about how you are feeling I think with all of my three I had various wobbles about bf (you'd think by the third I would be less worried but no!) They were all around the 6-10 week mark (more so with dd1!). I agonised and agonised over what I could do better differently etc etc but for me I slowly became more confident and with that confidence it got easier. Don't know when or how it happened it just did... ( i'm still feeding dd3 (2.6yrs) and with my first I never believed I would get past 6 weeks).
Good luck and hope you get the support you deserve.

Hi! This is my first post so be gentle with me!
Don't beat yourself up if you want to go down the formula route, you know what's best for you and baby.... But It WILL get better if you perservere.
I have an exclusively breastfed 7 month old and Definately had an oversupply issue at 8 weeks. I can remember because we went on holiday when he was 8 weeks and I can remember having issues whilst we were away., it will get better though. You and baby will both adjust to deal with it and it will rectify itself. Mine was resolved by 12 weeks and now never have engorgement or problems with fast let down. I would agree with the last post too, some babies are just grazers, it doesn't mean she isn't feeding properly. My lad has always had little and often and is a super quick feeder. Never feeds for longer than about 10 mins. It all sounds normal to me and if she is gaining good weight, you are doing a good Job!
I would avoid expressing unless you have to as this will increase the supply further. You need to let your supply adjust to what your baby needs only. I would try the block feeding and Definately stick to only one breast at at a time to avoid baby getting two lots of foremilk in one feed. If she fusses and coughs etc, then just take her off and let the milk letdown into a towel for a minute and latch her back on. Fussing will only increase the wind. In time she will be able to deal with the flow. She will also adapt her technique to deal with it. I have one boob that is worse than the other and infact now my son prefers this boob as he likes the quicker flow!
Breastfeeding isn't easy and anyone who tells you it is is fibbing. Its way harder than bottle feeding. It's labour intensive and no one can take over when the going gets tough but it's so worth it. Overall I have had a good experience but I have had a few blips along the way when I have considered stopping but you just have to perservere. Things do get better and by the time you have got to my stage, you will look back and feel so proud that you carried on. My son is 20lbs and has never had a day of illness in his little life..... He now goes about every 5 hrs, I have no letdown, supply issues, no painful boobs etc..... Keep going! The end result will be so worth it.

Hi Gina
Hope it's going better today - or at least you're feeling more positive about it. Glad to see Tiktok posted - she has been giving excellent BFing advice on MN for years (I think she probably helped me through BFing crises, and mine are now well into the answering back stage...)

Further advice on block feeding and helping babies cope with fast let down here - kellymom.com/bf/supply/fast-letdown.html.

HTH, and that you can get through the weekend!

I've read what everyone is saying but surely after 8 weeks that DD should be feeding longing enough to get to the hindmilk which I know she isn't reaching as when I give the breast a squeeze, the consistency is still very thin. Surely the green runny poos aren't normal! Quite acidic too! DD never ever has 2 breast per fed, she barely finishes the first! I can only assume it's my oversupply and fast let down that had caused DD to adopt a poor latch now hence all the problems!

Can anyone help or does this sound familiar to anyone and if so what did you do??

I'm so desperate right now that I have no idea how to get through the weekend!!

You can't 'get to the hindmilk' it's not a separate type of milk so if you have been told that baby needs to feed for X mins or have both sides to get what they need, then unfortunately they are underinformed. Babies don't need to take two sides to have a feed. If you have an overly generous supply then baby can get what they need from one (or less).

The info TikTok gave you about block feeding, have you tried that?

Block feeding works by lowering the amount of milk your body thinks it has to make - the breast not fed from will start switching off milk making cells from making any more milk as it fills up with undrunk milk. Eventually the extra milk making cells will get the message that you don't have greedy triplets and start turning themselves off permanently. It does take time though and it won't happen overnight so do be patient.

Could you talk to one of the bfing helplines? They are open now.

Gina - are you drinking anything particularly acidic yourself? Sometimes it helps to cut out orange juice and other citrus from your diet?

Re. latch, have you tried a variety of holds? changing positions might help (e.g. lying down and feeding on your side?) Can you take her off your breast when you get that let-down reflex, perhaps hand express some into a sterile glass and either bag it and freeze it, or use a pipette or teaspoon to drop it into her mouth (if she wants it later)?

If your DD is alert and gaining weight, don't get too caught up on the hind/foremilk thing - she's clearly getting sufficient nutrition. If you give the block nursing a go, it should increase the amount of higher fat 'hindmllk' your DD accessess: www.kellymom.com/bf/supply/foremilk-hindmilk.html

I also found this article (on the respected La Leche League website), that was of relevance to your concerns, suggesting that perhaps cutting down on the dairy in your own diet and block nursing may help re .the green stools:

www.llli.org/faq/foremilk.html
Although infants are not lactose intolerant by nature, a high volume of lactose can overwhelm a baby's digestive system. When there is not enough lactase to break down all the lactose, the excess lactose causes gassiness and discomfort, and frequently green, watery or foamy stools. Over time, large amounts of undigested lactose can irritate the lining of the intestines so that even a little bit passing through can cause irritation. Occasionally, this can result in small amounts of bleeding into stools that can be misdiagnosed as a food allergy. Some pediatricians will mistakenly diagnose lactose intolerance if there is undigested sugar in the baby's stool.

Occasionally, mothers whose babies are receiving a high level of lactose are advised to reduce the amount of dairy products in their diets so that there will be less lactose in their milk. This is neither necessary nor helpful, because the amount of lactose in a mother's milk has nothing to do with her diet; her body manufactures it especially for baby. If, however, limiting dairy products in mother's diet improves baby's condition, the baby was probably reacting to the proteins found in cow's milk that can appear in a mother's milk. (See our collection of LLL resources on Allergies for more information.)

For most mothers, allowing baby to nurse long enough on one side so that he gets more of the creamy, higher fat milk helps balance lactose and fat to ease digestion and usually corrects the problem.

I hope this helps. I remember how hard it is when BFing feels like it's going tits up (), but if you can hang on in there until Monday, you might get the support you need. Take care.

I'm no expert but I wouldn't worry too much about wether she is getting hindmilk or foremilk, only that she is getting milk and putting on good weight. If she is then she is getting what she needs regardless. Foremilk is still good milk its just that the hindmilk is the richer and thicker of the two. DS had green poos during the early days when I had over supply. Its obviously not ideal but don't think it's anything that can do any harm either. You may find that your Dd is just a windy baby and she would be windy on formula or if she was having longer feeds. My DS would sometimes feed for a couple of minutes every hour at 8 weeks so I doubt he was getting much hind milk either but he never suffered as a result. I had similar concerns when I had the over supply and you can get really hung up on the INS and outs of it all but like I said, if she is putting on good weight then it's all irrelevant and you are doing great!
After struggling with forceful letdown early on i had a real bad problem at about 4 months where i developed a really slow let down. Sometimes it would take 15 mins of sucking before the milk letdown. It was awful and I can remember feeling like I wouldn't get through the weekend BUT I did! Really feel for you!

Oops - have just re-read that second paragraph from LLL website - it's actually saying that limiting your diary intake isn't necessary or helpful. It's definitely suggesting restricting nursing to one side to get more of the hindmilk, so block feeding might help with your fast let downs and the green stools.