To ask where the self rightoueus bf/ff thread has gone

[pigletmania]

It was here this morning, but not now.

Yes you did running but your post reads as if you were implying that that did not apply to norfolk. That may not be what you meant but it does unfortunately read that way.

Yes and the way you've phrased it is that Norfolk has made a choice which you wouldnt have made. It's the "but i still maintain..."

Sorry, cross posted Minus.

No running I did give my DD the best possible start in life. You can maintain what you like.

:)

norfolk after my experience I was terrified by all the posters at the doctors; 'bm is awesome, helps mum and baby bond' etc... And with my hulking great 1 year old now, the love we have for each other... Even though we didn't bf I'm actually convinced that ff was best for us in the long run.

and peanutbutter that is all that matters :)

And when people say 'unless it's for medical reasons you should bf', i was perfectly able to bf. But if you read my post further up with my story; I don't think they count as medical reasons. I don't understand what more I could have done. Which is ironic, considering the NHS are pushing bf like mad, then (and this is just my area) cannot/will not help people through what is often a bumpy initial start.

peanut you might (or might not!) like to become a peer supporter? Many people who have gone through what you did with no support end up supporting others. It's great to learn more about BFing yourself, giving you a better shot if there is a next time, and also being able to help other mums can be very healing and very cathartic. You don't need to volunteer after the training if you don't want to, and it doesn't take long to do it. Just a suggestion :)

You are SO right. It's all very well the NHS putting up posters. They're cheaper than lactation consultants .

Incidentally, there is possibly a medical reason why your BABY struggled to BF. For instance, a baby who can't open their mouth enough may have a tongue tie (which can run in families - worth knowing the local situation in getting it dealt with if you plan another pregnancy). While these things are fixable, it's like trying to fix your own broken leg by yourself with no doctors helping you. If they (or rather, in this case, a BFing specialist who knows their stuff) help, you'll be fine. Without the help what do you do? No one ignores you if your leg is broken. They don't say, oh just use crutches and get over it, leaving you in pain. :(

So, how could I go about contacting a peer supporter? Because I am due in April, want to bf but am actually dreading it as I found last time so upsetting. Failing at it ruined the first few months of being a mum for me.

OK, there are a few things to look up in your area. Let me outline who you may talk to:

Peer supporter - someone trained in recognising and supporting normal breastfeeding - usually around 20 hours of training. Able to help with positioning and attachment and to reassure mums about how things are going. For instance, many mums give up in the early weeks because they feel they're not making enough milk, because their baby is feeding a lot. Explaining the normal patterns of feeding of a bf baby to a mum who has no personal experience of bfing can be enough to keep her going. They might run support groups like Bosom Buddies or Treasure Chest, or various other names, often within Children's Centres or Baby Cafes. They cannot diagnose or advise but they can give information and signposting to further help. There are a few of us on the board who are peer supporters (myself and Truthsweet for instance)

Breastfeeding counsellor - highly skilled and knowledgeable in breastfeeding, both normal and problematic. Has undertaken a course lasting 3 years or more to diploma level with either NCT, ABM or LLL. The term specifically refers to someone with this level of qualification BUT there is no legal definition of it so if someone claims to be a BFing counsellor check that they really are qualified. BFing counsellors can't technically diagnose because they're not necessarily medically trained but they will help with almost all Bfing problems. Some very specific problems such as tongue tie might not be picked up by a BFing counsellor (although it should be) but they should be able to deal with pretty much everything. BFing counsellors generally work as volunteers and some are paid a minimal amount by the local PCT for some of the hours they do. Some work in private practice as well as volunteering. Tiktok is a qualified breastfeeding counsellor.

Lactation Consultant (IBCLC) - International Board Certified Lactation Consultant - very often a medically trained person with exceptionally high level of knowledge about BFing - medical and normal. An IBCLC is not always medically trained - many were originally BFing counsellors but not midwives etc, but they will always have a huge amount of experience and knowledge. Sometimes they work in private practice and it's worth paying for this if you can as it's cheaper than formula - if you've gone through all your other options. Some hospitals employ IBCLCs but again, the term "lactation consultant" isn't protected in law so don't assume that someone who calls themself that is a certified IBCLC.

Midwives and health visitors are given virtually NO training in BFing support as part of their training. If they know anything it's because they've done additional training. Their knowledge is generally patchy at best :(

GPs are very often (not always, but very often) utterly rubbish.

You can find your local help as follows:

• Ask your midwife and Children's Centre about the local support groups, and who is in the region
• Contact your local NCT branch or LLL group - they very often have a qualified breastfeeding counsellor waiting for your call :)
• See if there is an ABM counsellor nearby

Some sites to try:

abm.me.uk/breastfeeding-support-groups
www.nct.org.uk/parenting/feeding
www.nct.org.uk/branches
www.laleche.org.uk/pages/groups/groups.htm

Wow, I never knew that organic and I'd never thought about it. As it happens, I'm going to a party at a children's centre tomorrow so I will ask about it and get back to you here tomorrow night.

I have many many times considered training to be a breastfeeding councillor but have always given up on the idea. I'm too scared of being seen as pushy, judgmental, part of the bf Nazis (hate this expression). Have you ever felt like that organicarrotcake?

Ah, thank you so much for that

I'm a bit wary about anyone a mw/hv may recommend to me. Last year, the bf support worker visited me twice in the first 2 weeks after having dd. The second time she advised me to just use formula as my daughter was latching on and off constantly and it was not doing her any good. I thought she'd be able to help me. It makes me cry just thinking about it now.

As there are so many posters here who are convinced BF is the only way to go, and look down on others for not doing so whether through ignorance/choice/medical need/circumstance etc , I hope these women are thinking about considering volunteering in one or other of the capacities listed by organiccarrot.

Either that, or shut the fuck up! There was NO help on offer to me. None at all. I asked for it even. Maybe I could have bf - I certainly intended to - or may I couldn't (DH had to go to Tesco and buy a steriliser and formula before I brought dd home) but it would have been nice to have one of these people on my side AT THE TIME. Rather than wearing their judgey pants now....

I know a couple of NCT trained BF counsellors here in Belgium. They are lovely. Sadly dd was drinking hot chocolate from a mug before I had the luck to come across them.

My sister bf her 3 boys without many problems. She was the only one who tried to help....and when you have your sister interfering with your norks you know things have gone rock bottom.....

peanut @ toddlers! Ohhh I understand!

surprise well, there's a difficult question! I just ran it past my husband to try to formulate a reply!

There is no doubt that I've been in situations where I've said the wrong thing and while NOT EVER HAVING judged someone, have been seen as judgemental. In the early days I often had a lot of heartache about this (fortunately have a very supportive lactivist husband whose shoulder I've cried on many times). I may well have been seen as being pushy - but that's a balance you tread - never being quite sure whether people WANT a push or whether they want someone to say "it's ok to move to formula". As BFing supporters - the clue being in the name - we generally err on the side of being positive about BFing but never if we honestly feel someone is ready to stop.

I was scared of being perceived like that, but now I know that from time to time people, who don't know me, will assume I'm one of any of those things but that's their perception, not reality.

There are so many people who want to breastfeed and for whom there's not enough support, why would anyone want to go out and deliberately want to judge, push or upset anyone who doesn't want to or has moved on from it? If people take what I do in that way, well, often it's a reflection of their experience and feelings as opposed to anything I've done.

OF COURSE it's a worry. I totally understand that. But you know, when someone comes back with a healthy breastfeeding relationship and gives you the feedback that you're part of that - it's - nothing short of magical.

With my DS2 I had an awful, awful, awful time. Without the support and help of loads of people I don't know where we would be. I am proud of being able to do the same for others now. I love being a peer supporter and I'm training as a BFing counsellor and it's amazing.

So in summary, please remember the people that you could help, and try not to worry about the people who make judgements about you making judgements about them. It's not you who is being judgemental there.

Gosh Hiss42, you can't even ask a simple question about BF around here without getting someone's back up! Funnily enough, I'm the opposite to you: most people I know BF. I had a v. difficult time bf my first DD due to low supply so to avoid all that stress second time round, I made a decision to FF, which I'm happy with. Other reasons I've come across are:

• Thrush; if mums gets it, easier to FF baby to avoid giving it to them
• Mastitis; another yucky thing to get and my friend found it easier to FF when she had it.
• Self-conscious; one friend went to the loo everytime she had to BF DS1, rather than do so in public and didn't want to do that with DS2.
• Not all babies are the same; some are terrible at latching on and/or some are terrible at sucking and this can lead to big problems with supply and/or exceptionally painful nipples.

And yes, I'm sure there are solutions to all these issues that can be resolved, allowing the mum to continue BF, but in the cases I mentioned, my friends made a decision to switch to FF which they are entitled to do. My post is in no way meant to part of any BF/FF debate, I'm just trying to answer your question.

My friend was telling me recently that she found it easy. Her daughter's just latched on pretty much straight away, supply was fine, not painful and she never gave it a second thought. Just did it with no fuss and no issues at all.

That's the first time I have ever come across anyone who's had that experience. I can't imagine that at all. She's not a smuggy smugbitch or anything, she was genuinely shocked that I hadnt found it as easy.

organic that was a very positive post. When I worked for Mothercare I had a lady that came in and asked for bf advice. She said the HV wasn't very helpful. She had FF her son buy really wanted to bf second time around.

I gave her all the advice I could based on what I'd experienced. For months she came back to the store and asked mentor advice. The joy that woman was feeling made me really happy.

I may look into it a bit more! I feel like there's too much promotion from the NHS but not enough support and knowledge coming from them.

Not mentor! Me for advice. Sorry.

yama have to admit i had that with my first dc no prob bf, thats prob why i fed her the longest. was a bit surprised i had any probs with my second but she was autistic, diagnosed later obviously, but was told later that can lead to lazy latching what ever that means. hence cracked, bleeding nipples etc. barely bothered with dc 3 did for a week but the second it started hurting i was out of there.

I'm the mother of my first DD and it really amazes me just how much emphasis there is on feeding and how some people genuinely believe that those who FF aren't giving their children the best start in life.

I ended up with an emcs after a terribly traumatic medicalised birth. My DD and I were separated (she was in NICU for 2.5 days, and I was unwell following my labour / spinal block not wearing off etc) and did not see her for 12 hours. I spent the first day sobbing in a hospital bed instead of celebrating the birth of my baby girl.

Before she was born, I was planning on bf - I bought bf tops, refused to even have a bottle handy just in case. However, my milk did not come in for 10 days after and due to DD's condition at birth had to ff her as advised by medical staff. I did everything in my power after that to bf - but backtracking was impossible and I had next to no help or support. I was depressed, in agony, exhausted not to mention anemic and ill myself. I beat myself up for weeks on end thinking I was a terrible mother and I wasn't giving my DD the best start in life. And I'll tell you, reading threads like this made it worse.

Looking back I realised I DID give her the best start though - because I love her. She is my whole world and I would do anything for her. We have such a strong connection already, and our bond has nothing to do with how I feed her. I very much doubt babies themselves care how they are fed, as long as they are fed. IMO ALL children get the best start in life by how much they are loved and cared for by their parents. Obviously feeding is vital to them, but Formula has everything a baby needs in it too to thrive and grow. And I had an amazing piece of advice - breast should never come at all costs. I've seen mums struggle to bf to the point of resenting their children because they hate it so much/in so much agony.

As others have pointed out, I don't know why some people (I say some, not all) feel that bf is the be all and end all - it's not. Maybe some day those same people who feel they can judge all of us who ff will be judged in future for something else.

oh and suffered totally from the whole you have done it once so you will be fine syndrome from hv and mw second time around.

SurprisEs - that is lovely to hear. I do think though that the eagerness to discharge mothers after giving birth, ie within several hours, must play a big part in this. In the olden days/abroad you would stay in the hospital 3-5 days at least. Surely that gives at least the chance to try to establish bf whilst under mw care? Chucking the new parents out in the morning to free up the bed.....

putrify i always stay in 3 days.