To ask where the self rightoueus bf/ff thread has gone

[pigletmania]

It was here this morning, but not now.

'Downbye - there is no 'forced feeding' of research findings here.'

Here on this specific thread, perhaps not. I was thinking in a wider context, including the OP's reference to the thread that got deleted precisely because that was what it did.

I chose to FF mine..

Despite reading these threads for some time now I still dont get why some people get so het up with how others feed their own babies, I really dont. I chose to ff all 3 of mine because I didnt want to bf, I have never had to justify it, either here or in rl.

downby has just said what I was thinking. I thought we were talking about the wider context when references were made to force feeding of information and people being judgmental.

Apart from the implication that those who have shared their stories are lying.

Exactly the same thing happened to me with my first, I remember crying with the pain and trying not to get her wet. It hurt more than the birth and for so much longer. I remember fearing that pain with my second pregnancy more than the birth. It took me feeding almost two months before the pain and the destruction of my nipples stopped.
I fed both of mine for 7 months.

See, I think it's fantastic that you persevered and I think it's equally fantastic that you don't judge others for feeling like they couldnt

I am 4 months pregnant again now (daughter is 10 months, so it's not all that long ago) and the only thing I am worrying about is trying to bf again and have done since I got the postive lines on the test. I feel ill at the idea and yet I dont feel able to say 'I'm not even trying to bf, I'm using formula straight away'.

wow i preferred the bf/ff united front on the other thread. i have to say i had no problems bf, had no problems bf in public i dont feel that when i do it it is an amazing thing, but then i dont do it for very long.
the longest was about a month or so, the shortest a week and one in between. i am not sure how long i will bf the one i am pregnant with now but it will be for only as long as i want which will prob be not very long.
no "i cant" no nothing, i just really dislike it. the 3 days is the bare min i will do and see how we go from there.
i know people that bf for ages and thats cool, i know people that want to and genuinely cant and it was actually painful to watch there distress. i like the freedom that comes with formula feeding, i like the sleeping through the night (mostly), i like the even share of parenting that can be achieved.
but if i am perfectly honest i really dont like aside from the sore nipples etc being attached to my baby 24/7.

hats off to you yaya when my nips started bleeding with my second i was right down to the shop. my HV was very good nodding and saying dont worry it will be fine and power threw etc i just asked her if she was mad?

oops, sorry the first bit of my last post was supposed to be a quote from the rather lovely Downbythe Riverside. I certainly didnt manage 7 months

Duckdodgers - they see it as a public health issue.

I personally feel this way and also see it as an equality issue.

ops then hats off to downside

downby even gah

Hiss... How does another woman saying she can't or won't breastfeed have any impact on you at all? How do you translate somebody talking of their own breasts, their own baby, their own experiences into it somehow "devaluing what you did for your DC"? Does that really make sense to you?

It highlights though the fact that other women seemingly judge and benchmark themselves against what their peers do. Why can we not just be content with our own decisions, they were ours to make? Somebody else's circumstances are different, and they have the right to make their decisions too. Does slapping another woman down verbally, judging their actions as wanting make anybody feel better? It's a hell of a pity that we can't be more supportive to each other.

Chipmonkey... So sorry to read about your daughter. :(

Yes I also don't like the assumptions of lying

I don't really like talking about my breasts to all and sundry. So even though in the eyes of some, I guess I'm 'excused' for not BF because it was a physical issue , I still would just say 'I couldn't' or 'it didn't work out'. It's no one's business.

Some here have said they felt their hard work of BF was diminished or devalued by people FF for whatever reason. I really, really don't get this. If you are proud of yourself, then be proud! Why would someone else's feeding choice affect that?

I don't think you can tell FF women to be less defensive if at the same time you are going to take FF as a personal affront. It works both ways.

Why an equality issue Shagmund?

ah x-post Lying Witch

shagmund: yes - but why are you insisting on setting the bar so high?

You said that what I did was inadequate. I am still asking why.

I'm also a bit at all the justifications for intrusion based on it being a 'public health issue'. I think it's usually just an excuse to be judgy.

Obesity is a public health issue, it would still be really rude of me to ask someone, 'But why are you fat? Hmm, I don't believe you, why are you really fat?'

"Howlingwolf, we don't know what causes SIDS but we do know there is an association between bottle-feeding and unexplained deaths in babies, and parents need to be told this.

For a very long time the FSIDS (main UK SIDS organisation) refused to mention the role of bf in SIDS prevention because of uncertainties about the research. The strength of the evidence has accumulated to the point where they feel its acceptable to list breastfeeding as one of the things a parent can do to reduce the likelihood of SIDS."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but an association between lower SIDS rates in BF babies doesn't correlate to FF babies bring at additional risk. Im putting this clumsily, but an association is not the same as a risk factor. It's also unclear, IF there's a protective quality to BF, whether it's the breastfeeding per se, or perhaps that the mother if she's made that decision, may well be from an economic/social class with better access to OTHER health information.
Let's not overegg the breastfeeding pudding.

I see the 'judgeyness' was picked up in my post, yet everyone chose to ignore the other points I mentioned about it being less socially acceptable to breastfeed.

What I'm saying is FF feeders think it's okay to go on about how they can't/won't breastfeed, yet I don't go on about why I don't formula feed.

I'm sure if anyone has actually had any negative comments because they FF, it was a rare occurence, by a millitant breastfeeder, who doesn't represent most of us (from the sounds of it the OP of the original thread). On a daily basis I have to put up with anti-breastfeeding predjudice. A man moved to another seat on the train yesterday who was sat opposite me because I was feeding my 9week old DS. I'm sure if I got a bottle out, no one would feel uncomfortable, but then I felt embarassed and bad for making him feel he had to move. A group of people walking past me and my DH in a restaurant made sure I could hear how disgusted they were with me feeding in public while they were eating. (Even though I was covered). Again, if he had a bottle in his mouth I'm sure he would of been cooed over.

Everyone on mumsnet seems to just keep saying poor ff mums, you breastfeeders are so judgey. I feel it all boils down to ff mums feelings about the decision they made through chosing not to bf or the decision that was made for them because they couldn't bf. They feel they have to over defend themselves when a lot of BF mums have never said a bad word about them, and picking stuff up in our posts and taking it the wrong way. Not sure of the exact stats but I'm certain only a small amount of people breastfeed for more than a few months. Maybe on here it's a little bit wonky in the ratio's of ff:bf because lots of people go on the computer while bf (like I am now).

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe I said that everytime I breastfeed my baby in front of someone I get a comment as to why they couldn't do it. MIL has told me at least 15 times, no exageration. So it does impact me being told how lucky I am, because I'm not lucky. It was hard through mastitis and thrush so just because I perseveered when others gave up, it's automatically assumed I a) am blessed and found it easy with no pain or raw bleeding nipples or b) am derranged and was determined to feed him this way, ignoring any pychological impacts for us both. I don't see why I have to listen to them talk about why they don't breastfeed when I don't go on about why I don't formula feed.

I think bf being seen as unacceptable in public has nothing to do with women who use formula and everything to do with the way breasts are hyper-sexualised in our culture. It's terrible and sends incredibly wrong messages to women about our bodies and what they should 'used' for. But honestly, it's not the fault of women who use formula.

FF don't 'go on' about using formula - you can see from my posts that I feel defensive due to the way other women have basically called me and others like me a liar, because I haven't furnished them with the full details of why I used forumula. You pretty much did so yourself in your first post on this thread!

And MN isnt full off people being sympathetic to ff women. Threads lie this fill up with ff women justifying themselves because of attitudes like the OP pf the other thread and to a lesser extent, yours.

It's brilliant that you persevered and succeeded. Honestly, it is. But I'm not sure why you feel entitled to hear the reasons why other women didnt.

hiss you dont have to listen to people go on about bf just as people who ff dont have to listen to people go on about that, its a two way street. its really not a rare occurrence to get ff bashing i would say i actually felt more judgement from people when i put my dc on formula then when i would get a boob out in public, but then the tuts and things never really bothered me i would just smile and nod at the crazy bizarre people offended at me feeding my child, just like i do when ever some one says some thing about me ff.

Hmm, I alway wish on these threads that if everyone who feels so strongly about bf would actually do something practical to support new mothers bf rather than banging on and on about it all it all the time.

I had an emcs and was offered NO SUPPORT AT ALL to try to bf. My sister was the only one who sat with me and tried to get dd to latch on. No milk. The MWs never helped, the support staff never helped. In the end a complete angel came and whisked screaming, hungry dd away in the middle of the night, 36 hours after she was born, and gave her a bottle. We both got some sleep.

When I got home, still no sign of any milk, I asked the HV. She said dd was doing fine as she was so "not to worry about it". So I didn't. I never gave it another thought til I joined MN......

I've never heard anything negative said about a ff mum because it's the norm, it' breastfeeders who are going against the grain. Most of the negatives about formula feeding seem to be coming from ff mums taking what bf's are saying about their own achievements and turning it into saying what ff's haven't achieved which isn't the case. We should be allowed to be proud and congratulated without the psychological issues surrounding ff mums decisions causing them to be bitter.

yamayama I do have to listen all the time about ff though, that's what I keep saying. Everytime I feed DS, I get told about why people FF, as though they feel they need to defend themselves. And they always say they can't/couldn't do it. If you don't want to talk about why you didn't bf then don't, what I meant in my first post is if you feel you have to talk about ff to me then it's because you have un-resolved issues regarding that decision (forced or by by choice) and you should tell me about it, rather than de-valuing my effort by saying I'm lucky to have found it easy or accusing me of being a derranged mother for perserveering when they gave up.

And I never said FF was to blame to the way BF is seen, I just don't see why there is so much sympathy given to FF mums when it's BF mums that face more day-to-day issues surrounding feeding.

I'm saying ff is the norm as a young mum from a deprived area.

Oh yes, ff totally is the norm in some areas and in some it really isnt. We all make decisions about parenting and it's hard enough without being judged and found wanting regardless of what aspect of parenting we're talking about. But as much as you've never heard ff mum being criticised, I can genuinely say I've never heard a bf mum being criticised. Honestly, never. I have however been patronised, dismissed and criticised by breastfeeders who, like you say, want to be congratulated for breastfeeding. Erm, ok, congratulations. Now beak out of other people's business.

I mean, if you've noticed that ff women feel the need to defend themselves, then surely you can see that there's a reason for that? It's not some coincidence that a lot of ff women need to justify themselves.

And as for 'being a deranged mother for persevering' if you're talking about what I said in my earlier post, then as I've said - I'm talking about women who feel the need to shame other women. If you don't feel the need to shame other women for using formula then I'm not talking about you. Otherwise, if the cap fits etc etc