Tandem feeding support thread

[EauRouge]

In anticipation of some graduates from the BF and pregnant thread, here's a shiny new thread for tandem feeders to laugh, moan and puzzle over the ins and outs of BF a baby and toddler.

Things are going pretty well for us, we are having a bit of hair-pulling at the moment though. DD2 is 7 mo and loves grabbing hair. DD1 (3 in just over a week!) is not so keen and sometimes wraps her arms around her head.

Another issue is DD1's latch. She's not even close to self-weaning but her latch has been really lazy the last few months. I googled and found this which has been really helpful.

Aside from that, things are brilliant and I'm really glad I'm still BF DD1. It's my one-stop parenting tool for fixing everything

Also, can you give me any hope on life tandem feeding a newborn and a toddler? Do they eventually go back to eating solids?

Oh yes, and birth plans. Love those.

Well, we've had a quiet day. The IM came to check on us after my teary day yesterday. I have agreed to send her a pic to use on her website but am not sure whether to go for one of DD2 on her own or one of me - face hidden by straggly post-birth hair, sat in the pool holding DD2 flashing a bit of nipple.

She also returned the placenta which she said she hasn't been able to drop off at our local hospital due to parking problems. DH almost passed out but I said we'd have it and plant it. It's in a plastic bag in a locked plastic bucket but still, it's almost 2 weeks old. DH asked my mum if she'd throw it in with the clinical waste when she goes back to work next week...he isn't keen on the planting idea.

Readying myself for another burst of cluster feeding here. DD2 has been in a bit of a grump today so I was kind of hoping it was cluster feeding come early.

I have been feeding both DDs together though and have to say, I quite like it. I think it will be better when DD2 has more head control.

I would also like to add an update for anyone reading the thread who's pregnant and experiencing the same get-off-me-now feeling I had when feeding DD1. It has gone. I noticed it had gone about 2 days before Dd2 was born.

Did anyone else notice anything similar?

Yes, the feeding aversion I had while pregnant has disappeared. Completely. It is so much better.

It disappeared really quickly for me too. I found the first few feeds where I fed them both together really weird, like having a delicate little mouse on one side and a dyson on the other but holy crap, it's great having a BF toddler around when you've got engorged boobs.

Lol @ dyson!

DD1s head looks huge on my boob now compared to DD2. It does feel like bf a teenager at times.

PMSL Yes, DD1 grew about a foot during the time I was in labour. I thought my mum had brought the wrong child with her.

KellyDD1 spent about 8 weeks exclusively bfing again , then gradually started eating. However, she had not been very interested in solids until my supply dropped in pregnancy, despite being 2.6 at the time.

Birth plans, well it will be another home birth. I have my doula lined up (same as for DD2's birth) she'll be bringing her 4mth old! Midwife will be shut in the kitchen with nice biscuits as although I want them there, I actually have panic attacks when mws touch me (leftover trauma from DD1's birth). If I could almost exactly repeat DD2's birth I would be very happy, 4hrs, no pain but she was brow presentation which was hard work to push out. This one (will be DD3 called Miranda) is ROA so should be easier on the pushing!

8 weeks!!!

MsBuggy I was talking to my IM yesterday about the type of people who contact her. DH asked if it was just rich Cheshire mums (he only had to glance at his wife to answer that one).

She said no, either mums who'd had a negative first birth or first time mums who weren't happy with some aspect of the antenatal care.

I agreed that had I had a straight forward birth with DD1 in hospital then I probably wouldn't have considered homebirth.

So, as backwards as it sounds, If I could go back and change DD1s birth experience for me then I probably wouldn't. It really did change my life in good and bad ways.

If I could go back and change it for DD1 then I would in a heartbeat.

My IM also asked if I'd talk to another of her clients who is bf in pregnancy. I said of course but I do think there is something amusing about me giving advice to someone on the phone and then sobbing on this thread about how I'm struggling.

Anyway, less cluster feeding last night. DD2 fed almost constantly from 1am ish so I'm breaking out the Lansinoh today. I was snappy again in the night and feel awful this morning. I wish I could have the patience with feeding her that I had before I was pregnant. Last night DH took DD2 fora cuddle while I fed DD1 to sleep. It was lovely, nice comfy position and very calm.

Such a contrast to how things were in the early hours

Anyway, how are you all today?

We're going to look at a house in the next village then off to Mothercare to get DD2 some clothes and look at climbing frames/swing/slide things for the garden. We don't live near a park really so this is my next best solution..

How do you all cope when out 'n about?

BIL and soon to be SIL came to meet DD toay and after lunch we all strolled to the pub, just to get outside and our legs stretched.

All was fine. Til DD needed a feed, I'm not immensely proud of this but I took DS round the corner to feed him first and then, when he had had enough he played (DH supervised) while I started feeding DD. All well and good until DS noticed what was happening and (of course) all hell broke loose. He wanted 'na-na' too. But it is impossible for me to feed the both of them without exposing myself entirely (I know, I know, it shouldn't be an issue, but it is) so I made DH take him outside. It was of course heart breaking to hear him scream so loudly and feel such obvious rejection.

How on earth am I going to do anything with the 2 of them on my own though?!?!

MBJ, I have never BF both of them at the same time in public, I'd need four hands because DD1 has a habit of yanking my top up. Usually DD1 is too distracted to want BF in public but on the occasions when she does ask she is usually happy to wait her turn. I think this will happen for your DS too but it's early days yet, he's probably still feeling a bit unsure of his place since your DD's arrival.

Just give it time, I'm impressed that you're out and about already, I was still gibbering on the sofa until DD2 was 3 or 4 weeks old

Thanks Eau, tbf, I wanted to come home much sooner than the others, but I also habpve A LOT of help. Both my mum and brother are here at the moment ( although they are off to London tomorrow and brother is leaving for home on Monday evening - mum is coming back though) and DH is on paternity leave (of course) so I'm able to get a lot more rest than most, I think.

The nights are rather trying too (but the we've one had 2 at home so far)

I've managed to do both together in public by feeding the little one in the sling and using the sling to cover the other side too. It is not the most comfy way to feed two, but it works when necessary.

Off to the naming ceremony for a friend's baby this morning. Pumpkin soup and cake in the hall afterwards, yummy!

Not relevant to me as only have one DC at the moment, but I'm quite curious about this. A friend is currently pregnant with DC2. She was told by her GP to stop breastfeeding her DS as soon as she found out she was pregnant as he could receive too much oestrogen from her breastmilk. I'd never heard of such a thing and had always assumed it was fine to breastfeed through pregnancy and beyond. Anyone have any views?

There are no studies to show that BF during pregnancy is harmful to the nursing toddler or the foetus unless there are other issues with the pregnancy. Some GPs are fantastic but not all of them have up-to-date BF training.

If your friend is having a normal, healthy pregnancy then she'd be better off talking to a MW or a BF counsellor about BF during pregnancy. I found my MWs very open-minded about it but they didn't have an awful lot of information and I had to do all my own research.

This is the book that everyone will recommend, if your friend has an LLL group nearby then they should have a copy.

Kellymom is a great resource too, lots there about tandem nursing.

reg that is a new one on me! I spent a lot of time on the bf while pg thread. The most common question was about bf causing mc or prem labour (there is no evidence that it does). I've never heard of too much oestrogen in bm! Others would know better (eaurouge!) but i'm not sure weather oestregen is present in bm (does it play a role in production? It is raised progresterone that maintains pg isn't it?), wether it can be taken up by the lo (i know oxytocin is found in bm but it is thought to be inabsorbable) and if it is present and can be absorbed, weather it is harmfull, orgasmet e

Right, I've had a look in my AITN and it says...

"A fear in many traditional cultures is that... pregnancy itself can pollute the mother's milk, rendering it unsafe for the nursing child, a belief that the ancient Greeks also shared."

How old is your friend's GP, Reg? If he/she is several thousand years old then it's possible that he/she is an ancient Greek.

"It is true that a subsequent pregnancy can have a negative impact on the benefits of breastfeeding- but only in so far as it leads to premature weaning or diminished milk supply." (I never had any complaints though)

Moving on, the American Academy of Family Physicians says in their 2002 Policy Statement on Breastfeeding says....

"Breastfeeding during a subsequent pregnancy is not unusual... If the child is younger than two years of age, the child is at increased risk of illness if weaned."

So the opposite of what your friend's GP told her.

(All quotes from 'Adventures in Tandem Nursing')

HTH :)

sorry! My phone went crazy!

Was gonna say if oestrogen in bm is harmfull, is it harmfull enough to negate the bennefits of bf?
I have to say i think your friends gp has found theirself in something of a knowledge vaccume and so made something up!

Back later for catch up!

Morning.

I haven't ever heard anything about oestrogen levels in BM during pregnancy being a problem. I know there has been concerns raised about environmental oestrogens in BM.

Anyway. Day5 today. Weighing day. Am I alone in being worried about this?

With DS I was completely oblivious, well not really, but I really wasn't concerned about him being weighed and as it turns out he had regained his birthweight by the time he was weighed on day 5. This time round, I know, I have gallons of milk but I am so afraid that DS is drinking it all (which I know is completely ridiculous) and that DD is not requesting enough or that (because her latch can be a little shallow at times) she's not accessing enough milk. (Ridiculous again, she had 5 good sized yellow poos yesterday and a few skid-mark ones too) I honestly couldn't say how many times she feeds a day either. I have NO idea, but she does seem to sleep a lot longer stretches at night than DS ever did. My breasts feel like they are going to pop from about 11pm onwards.

I'm just being my usual worried self

mbj i have had/ do have almost identical worries. I seen to remember ds feeding constantly, but dd doesn't. Ditto sleeps more. She did loose some weight but no one seemed concerned and she almost got it back so they signed us off. Dd also has a shallow latch at times which i put down to their being so much milk, she just has to hang around near a nipple and wait for milk to flow in to her mouth!

It's compounded by the fact that it's easier and quicker to feed ds first to shut him up . Some evenings have involved dh walking crying dd round upstairs while i feed ds to sleep. This only happens when i can't settle/nurse both at once and dd is waking ds. And she's only cried for 15mins max but i feel terrible. Ds never had to cry for milk. I can count the times he cried at all on one hand and dd has already exceeded that.

Must dash sorry

yes, weight concerns here too although now 2 week old DD2 is growing out of her newborn clothes and has gained when she was weighed last so I probably shouldn't worry.

I do feel like my toddler feeds more often and for longer and all DD2 does is sleep. We had 2 nights of killer cluster feeding and are now back to lovely nights sleep (DD2 just latches on and I go back to sleep - she's not sleeping through obviously).

I got snappy with DD1 this morning again because she asked for milk 3 times in an hour. It would be so bad if she just rolled over and latched on but she doesn't, she sits up, starts crying and says "mummy milks, I want mummy milks, I'm tired" at the top of her voice. It drives me insane.

I asked DH this morning to keep reminding me that she needs it. I feel dreadful this morning. She's so lovely and it's not her fault we decided to have another baby before she weaned.

Ah, phew! I'm not a weirdo . Thank you. With DS I spent hours just holding him and letting him feed ad and when he liked to, whereas, I feel like I have to anxiously wait for DD to stir a bit so I can change her nappy and wake her up a little to feed. and then if she slips to the end of my nipple due to laziness and I unlatch her, she often us't that keen on going back on. Weird.

She does however have a few 'alert and content' periods everyday. Which DS never had, he was either eating, sleeping or screaming. For months

I'm not that open about tendering with my hcps, as I haven't needed to tell them but I suppose, I do worry about them blaming DS if there is any trouble with DD's weight-gain. She's also got twinge of jaundice so I really, really want her to feed as much as possible. But you can lead a horse to water and all that.

Poor DS, he is such a sweet, sweet boy and I feel acutely Joe much his life had changed. Poor thing.

msbuggy how was the naming ceremony? What happened? I'm always a bit sad that we never did anything to mark ds's birth. I think maybe we might do something for both now dd is here...but what? Ideas welcome!

Mbj ds hasn't asked to nurse at the same time while out. Phew.

Can we think of an term/acronym for nursing two dc's at once? It's so cumbersome (to type though also to do at times). Maybe dual nursing(DN)? Ambe dexteras Booberas (AB)? Suggestions please!

Kelly it's interesting what you say about IMs. I know someone who hired one for a breech home birth. And a good friend will be using one next time, previous still birth, poor antenatal care. In both cases it was a big financial decision but both felt the sacrifice was worth it. Do you mind me asking what happened with dd1 that made you want an IM this time?

Msbuggy i'm interested in your story too...sorry i'm so nosey, i'm completely fascinated by people's experiences of birth. But feel free not to answer! Another friend had a doula after a still birth, i don't know many other people that have. I'd love to be a doula though and am thinking of training. Dh is supportive even though i've told him there might not be much of a living in it...it'd be more a vocation me thinks!

NT (nursing two)?

MW been and gone. No weight loss
Feeling very relieved.

Thanks for the info. My friend had already stopped BF when we were talking about it, as she waited a few weeks before telling me about the pregnancy. She wasn't pleased about switching to formula so it's a shame if she's been misinformed.

Morning! The naming ceremony was beautiful, it was in our local Unitarian chapel and was very pagan in feel. There were readings about children, including the Kahlil Gibran one read by her 10yo (which didn't make me cry, oh no) and water used as a symbol of life. Then there were words and gifts from the Goddess and Sage parents, followed by a big party in the hall with pumpkin soup and cake.

Erm, to make this the longest post imaginable, here's the birth stories!

I'll preface DD1's by saying that I was 21 and had total trust in health professionals.

We had planned a home birth and I had spent most of Saturday day time with mild contractions, so we rang the midwife at around 9pm when they started to get closer together. Ŵe also called my Mum who came and watched DVDs with me! When the midwife arrived she did an internal, discovered a cervical lip and tried to pull it out of the way. It was agony and I had a panic attack. While I panicked she held me down on to the bed, which made it worse until DP came up and told her to get the hell off me. After this, she took my blood pressure which was obvusly very high and she called an ambulance.

By the time we got to hospital I was fine, but kind of stuck there. We got comfortable and my Mum and DP took turns in supporting me while I quite happily laboured on my knees. We didn't see a midwife all night, but my Mum says she kept checking until at around 6.30am she saw hair!

DP went to fetch a midwife, who turned up about 20mins later as DD1 had started to crown and all hell broke loose! Despite me screaming no, two midwives flipped me on to my back and attached a fetal scalp monitor. As they out the monitor in DD1 twisted round several times, ending up posterior. I yelled at them to get the monitor off her as they were hurting her, but was told not to be silly. My contractions stopped (no shit!?!) so they began to talk about c-section. My Mum demanded a doctor's opinion, who said that I was doing fine.

DD1 was born a few minutes after the Dr left the room, with the cord wound tightly round her neck three times. Midwives held up a blue, not moving thing and whisked her away as I reached for her. She was gone for 45 minutes, during which there were no midwives present for me delivering the placenta (Mum scooped it up!). No one told us what was happening, we assumed she had died. They brought her back, but she didn't lookor feel like my baby any more.

Unsurprisingly, I had PND, bonding issues and it took her three months before she latched on. I am endlessly proud of myself for breast feeding her for 4years and 11months!

I'll give you the blog link to DD2's birth story for speed! story