Please help. I think i have ruined my chances of BFing my daughter :(

[rocketleaf]

Its a bit of a long story but basically I couldn't get my daughter to latch on after initially suckling after birth so thr MWs at the hospital had me extress colostrum to feed her with syringe. After that she was really sleepy and we couldnt get her to latch on. I had about 6 different people tell me different ways and things (for instance one said my nips are flat and use guards, another poo pooed that) but no one actually got her to suckle. In a weak moment i asked them to give her some formula by cup just so i could get some sleep as hadnt slept in about 4 days. In the end before they would discharge us they made us agree to do this complicated feed/give expressed/top up with formula routine every 3 hours, which stupidly we followed for about 3 feeds on wed night. I was really unhappy about this as i didnt want to bottle feed her let alone with formula ut they had really knocked my confidence and implied she would starve otherwise although i was still able to express colostrum.
When I saw my community MW yesterday morning she said it was bollocks and then SUre start came and they gave the same advice re positioning etc that i already l knew but doesnt seem to work with my DD and told me just to go with skin to skin and feed and combo express. All the stuff I thought I knew before going into hospital anyway.
Yesterday I decided it would be breast only, she started sucking and my milk came through so i thought we had turned a corner but then she became really rough, chomping on my nipples and really hurting and getting really distressed, coming off and on or stopping feeding. I have read loads of stuff on the internet and tried relatching and relatching again and again but still cant seem to get it right. Like she was really hungry and wanting to suck my not getting enough if any. I was still able to express some milk yesterday but we had to feed her all of that just toget her to sleep. It got to the point when she screamed everytime i took her near the breast. Last night we tried a bath together and that really helped her to calm down with me although i didnt really get her to feed agian. But it also woke her up so we had togove her all the xpressed milk and she still wouldnt sleep.

I have just got up because my breast were engorged again and my husband had brought her to bed after staying up with her to let me sleep. I have only managed to expressa 20 ml and its all ground to a halt. Breasts still engorged and nipples are wrecked. I dont know what I am gong to do when she wakes up wanting to be fed.

I never kidded myself that it would be easy but now am really worried that i have screwed up my milk supply, turned her into a ravenous beast with those few formula feeds and no idea what i am going to do when she wakes next.

I also dont think the pump i have is very good (avent) as it makes my nips bleed but maybe this is normal?

I know damn well that me being up at 4.30 stressing about this is not going to help but I can't help it. :( I really dont want to resort to formula but also am worried as she is only 5 days old that she will loose weight or be really stressed and over hungry. Sorry this is a bit incoherent too. Please help.

where were . I know my posts are always full of little mistakes but these are normally due to phone miss key or autocorrect. (must be feeling better to notice such pedantry)

Rocket I am certainly not an expert but 10 mins each side sounds good to me. Ds2 would never feed for longer than 10-15 mins and is now 5 1/2 months and gaining weight in line with his birth centile :)
It's hard though isn't it when you can't actually see/measure what they're taking.
You're doing so well :)

Hi Rocketleaf. you don't know me, I just wanted to say 10 mins each side and no interest in top-up sounds like you filled her up good and proper and must mean you're both doing it right.

My son is 9months and was always a quick feeder once he got the hang of it (4 mins average). He had no interest in biological nurturing, I had to post the nipple in his mouth for ages but now he's straight in there.

Ps. Meant 10-15 mins in total not each side :)

10 mins each side could well be enough, it must be if she doesn't want the top up :) some babies are quicker than others remember.

MW came (yet another new one!) while she was on this morning and she said it looked like she was definitely feeding. And she has put on 2 oz since Monday so looking like an oz a day at the mo! So that's good as we definitely fed her less top up and more boob yesterday.

I take it I should still be expressing between feeds? I dont get anything much if I tryt right after feeding her but if i wait an hour it seems to be better. Not sure if that's because they have had a chance to fill up or if I am a bit more relaxed as nipples have had a chance to calm down (maybe bit of both)

Thanks pash she does have a very strong suck so even tho the latch might not be very efficient maybe the strength of suction makes up for it a bit (and explains the pain!)

Oh yes, theres a difference of feeling between actual pain and a strong suck. In time you get used to it, feels like more of a sucky tickle now.

Now she's got the hang of it theres no stopping her. Its a switch you wont turn back off.

Yes exactly!! It's becoming more bearable on occasion. At first i thought I was just getting used to the pain but now I am hoping it is because the latch is a bit better those times. But then I think she slips a bit as as it will start to hurt again after 5 mins or so. And getting her unlatched is very tricky even with the finger in the mouth trick it's still hard to unlatch her. Anyway I am taking her off and if she won't relatch offering the EBM. Fun times!!!

Bet you she relatches more than not now she's discovered how to do it!

Oh yes, it's just getting her to do it right! Just need to practice I guess :-)

No shortage of that then!

rocket I wasn't supplementing as she was able to feed quite efficiently, so put weight on, just at the expense of my poor ravaged nipples- they had actual holes in them!! . I stubbornly held out on giving her a bottle as I was terrified of making the latch worse,but about a week after the snip i was in too much pain and had a week of only doing one breastfeed a day, the rest I expressed and gave with a bottle. Luckily my DP was off work that week but when he went back I couldn't find the time to express so I went back to EBF and have been ever since. The bottle feeding didn't cause any confusion, I used tomee tipee which seemed to get her to open her mouth quite wide over the teat so maybe that helped?
She would also start off well and then her latch would 'slip' and get uncomfortable so it may be a sign that she is starting to get the hang of it?

Such good news Rocket :)

Great news!

If you're still giving top-ups, express, but maybe drop some expressing sessions as you use less top-ups in a day.

Get picky about making sure she always has a decent latch on the bottle - mouth wide open and tongue down befoer she gets the teat. Doing that made a huge difference with DD. The Calma is good for combining as the flow mimics bfing, but it's a very un-nipple like teat IMO so you have to be extra careful about the wide open mouth with bottles.

Dorcas i take my hat off to you. Only been feeding for a day or two again and its so sore again. Might have spoken too soon about the pain getting better. IDK how you did this for weeks on end. Will prob skip a breadtfed over night again to give them a rest. Ouch!! :-(

Oh bugger. But you have to stop if it hurts. You are still a-fucking-mazing anyway Sprocks :)

I'd get really picky about latch on both you and the bottle. And take painkillers.

Good luck!

Thanks rocket, but I did it with a lot of tears, stress and painkillers. Honestly, some nights I would be crying as I fed her, other times I would swear like a trooper as she latched on. Looking back I don't know how I did it so can only put it down to all those baby hormones that made me a bit loopy and stubborn idiotic about the whole thing. I really hope I'm not coming across as some crazy masochistic nutter! I just wanted to let you know that I totally get how bloody painful it is and what hard work it is, in many ways it was harder than labour as at least you know there is an end point but it was hard keeping going with the bf not knowing if it would ever work out. I think only you know what your limits are and you have to decide whats best for you, you are doing amazingly and have already given her a fantastic start. I feel like I'm being a bit inarticulate but I think what I'm trying to say, and I'm not sure if this is helpful or not but... I desperately wanted to bf my daughter and what I wanted when I was in the middle of that stress was to know that I could do it, even if it was painful and hard right now. I knew there were other options and I was totally prepared to use them and did when it got too much (expressing, bottle feeding, formula for a day whilst I got a head start on pumping) but I really wanted most of all to bf so needed to hear about other people who'd been through the same and got there. So, I hope that my posts are helpful, otherwise feel free to ignore them! It is easy now for me to look back and give advice, and i dont regret it as i love bf my daughter, but being in pain when bf is horrible, horrible, horrible and I don't know if I could do it again to be honest, not for such a long time anyway.
Hope baby rocket is doing well and you had a good night

I agree with japhrimel now you are both getting the hang of it a bit more, and initial wieght gain panic seems to be over, you need to really start concentrating on the latch, both on breast and bottle. don't forget the nipple care, wipe bm over your nips after feeds, lansinoh as well and don't let them dry out.

you are an absolute inspiration :)

I expressed for 3months when LO was born. She latched back on again at 12 weeks old PERFECTLY. It was as if she had never been on the breast. In fact, bfing a 12wk old baby was a million times easier than bfing a newborn. My newborn was tiny, had a tiny mouth, and my breasts were huge, painful and engorged. She didnt have a hope of getting anything but the nipple. Of course, we ran into problems when she was just 3 days old. Expressing was perfect for her, but a faff for me. We gave her epxressed milk in a bottle. For 12 weeks she had that, and still latched on perfectly at 12 weeks.

Dorcas, your posts are an inspiration, perfectly articulate and I am very grateful for them! It really helps to know that I am not alone, that it's possible to do it. You are so right about doing whatever it takes to get through, but I am really pleased that that hasn't involved formula for quite a while. I have a very strong stubborn streak myself which I think has helped me keep going so far.

Japhrimel and Cossie, yep i definitely agree. Just back from infant feeding clinic and the LC there said the same thing. She was really pleased with progress from last week. Babyleaf has definitely got the right action and is getting milk etc. its just making sure the latch it right. We have figured out that the slipping is probably due to me relaxing once she is latched. She said that for now while BL is still learning and is quite small to keep her pulled in very close to me and supported all the time to make sure the latch is right. Hard on my arms but it won't be forever. Did a full 15 min feed while there and 2nd side didn't really hurt at all! And I am getting less of the white line across my nipple too :o She said she obviously didnt need topping up afterward so to just express if she didnt take the second side and keep it in reserve in case she didnt feed well at any point or needed more than I could stand to give. So all good progress it seems, just hope I can maintain it!

SweetAnnie, thats good to know but I hope it won't come to that! Actually my MW told me about people who bottle fed for that long and just latched on one day but it was quite hard to believe! So good to meet someone who has done it. Did you try her at all within that time or just wait til 12 weeks?

Annie I agree, around the three month mark bf dramatically improved for me, I think that it is just so much easier for them when they get that bit bigger. Looking back I wonder if I would have been better from my point of view giving her more bottles of expressed milk to give myself a break, but I was so scared of making the latch worse. I really tied my self in knots worrying about what to do, turned to bottles in desperation and actually she never seemed to have a problem swapping between the two.

rocket being stubborn definitely helps
Fantastic to hear that things are improving!

that is brilliant news rocket you are doing so well.

I agree with the 3 month thing, my friend who had trouble bfing said the same. she expressed and mix fed for 3 months, trying him once a day on the breast with a lot of pain, but then suddenly it went - she thinks is was down to his size as well.