Please help. I think i have ruined my chances of BFing my daughter :(

[rocketleaf]

Its a bit of a long story but basically I couldn't get my daughter to latch on after initially suckling after birth so thr MWs at the hospital had me extress colostrum to feed her with syringe. After that she was really sleepy and we couldnt get her to latch on. I had about 6 different people tell me different ways and things (for instance one said my nips are flat and use guards, another poo pooed that) but no one actually got her to suckle. In a weak moment i asked them to give her some formula by cup just so i could get some sleep as hadnt slept in about 4 days. In the end before they would discharge us they made us agree to do this complicated feed/give expressed/top up with formula routine every 3 hours, which stupidly we followed for about 3 feeds on wed night. I was really unhappy about this as i didnt want to bottle feed her let alone with formula ut they had really knocked my confidence and implied she would starve otherwise although i was still able to express colostrum.
When I saw my community MW yesterday morning she said it was bollocks and then SUre start came and they gave the same advice re positioning etc that i already l knew but doesnt seem to work with my DD and told me just to go with skin to skin and feed and combo express. All the stuff I thought I knew before going into hospital anyway.
Yesterday I decided it would be breast only, she started sucking and my milk came through so i thought we had turned a corner but then she became really rough, chomping on my nipples and really hurting and getting really distressed, coming off and on or stopping feeding. I have read loads of stuff on the internet and tried relatching and relatching again and again but still cant seem to get it right. Like she was really hungry and wanting to suck my not getting enough if any. I was still able to express some milk yesterday but we had to feed her all of that just toget her to sleep. It got to the point when she screamed everytime i took her near the breast. Last night we tried a bath together and that really helped her to calm down with me although i didnt really get her to feed agian. But it also woke her up so we had togove her all the xpressed milk and she still wouldnt sleep.

I have just got up because my breast were engorged again and my husband had brought her to bed after staying up with her to let me sleep. I have only managed to expressa 20 ml and its all ground to a halt. Breasts still engorged and nipples are wrecked. I dont know what I am gong to do when she wakes up wanting to be fed.

I never kidded myself that it would be easy but now am really worried that i have screwed up my milk supply, turned her into a ravenous beast with those few formula feeds and no idea what i am going to do when she wakes next.

I also dont think the pump i have is very good (avent) as it makes my nips bleed but maybe this is normal?

I know damn well that me being up at 4.30 stressing about this is not going to help but I can't help it. :( I really dont want to resort to formula but also am worried as she is only 5 days old that she will loose weight or be really stressed and over hungry. Sorry this is a bit incoherent too. Please help.

[MadameBoo]

Hello darling sorry I can't call this morning have to take smallboo swimming but good to read it's getting better - don't forget the cabbage leaves (savoy) to relieve the engorgement - you just put them in your bra.

Stay in bed - put a ban on visitors unless they are coming to be helpful - take aways and loads of skin to skin, glad the bath worked as a calm down technique, you are doing brilliantly.

[Medee]

how did MW visit go, Rocket?

[rocketleaf]

She was ok. We are back on the three hour formula/@expressing routine. Milk supply is looking low again so going to try all your suggestions. I just wish my parents hadnt driven all the way up to stay in a hotel as will have to see them today at sone point. I am having a bit of a downward swing again but MW didn't seem to worried. I've postponed breast start councillor til Monday but she is dropping a medina pump round. She agreed prob not worth trying to sort the latch until I am a bit more relaxed and am letting down as don't want babyleaf to get anxious about boob. Just going to spend the weekend doing skin to skin and trying to get milk going and seeing that as suPplimental to the formula at the mo unless it really gets going. I am mainly worried now that we haven't Been feeding her properly for nearly a day and she is still doing little meconium poos. Be happier if she would do a greenish one.have sent TB out for bits abd bobs and mOre rescue remedy and fenugreek.

[rocketleaf]

She is still so sleepy tho. Its hard not to worry.

[whitechocolatebuttons]

It may have already been said (i skimmed the responses) but has your baby been checked for tongue-tie?
I ask because your story is similar to mine when my son was born. His weight dropped and he was panicky at my breast. He would try so hard and then fall asleep after struggling to feed. I felt so sorry for him and for myself (!) as i'd bf-ed previously successfully.
His tongue-tie was fixed really quickly, hes now Ebf-ed and a big smasher at 4 months. I'm not sure why this isn't looked for by the paediatrician during the first check over.

[CurlyCasper]

I know you can't help but worry rocket. I was in the same situation. except I didn't realise my baby wasn't getting fed properly for nearly two days. I thought the tiredness was normal and I just had a really chilled baby. At least you've got your eye on the situation. Did the MW weigh her today? If she loses too much weight too quickly, they will take action to help you both out. yes, we ended up back in hospital, but it turned out to be the best thing. It was a slow, steady process to stop her panicking at feed times, but you can get there. A little bit of formula will not hurt. She's had the colostrum and BM you've produced, so she has not missed out.

Just relax, cuddle your little girl and look after yourself. And please just ask if any of us can help. x

[PerfectDromedary]

MW has seen her, though, so sleepy and meconium poo has been noted. You're right to be concerned, but formula and expressing and skin-to-skin will get you back on track. Check out the Calma teats, too - it takes forever to get formula into the baby by cup or finger feeding and you need to concentrate on the expressing to maintain your supply.

Does your m/w know about domperidone? It's an anti-nausea drug which has the side effect of increasing milk supply. My bf'ing support peeps offered to write to my GP to get it prescribed. Might help. I took a lot of fenugreek - it's working if you can smell it on your skin. And you might want to think about hiring a double-pump. It all gets easier, honest. I went from deep sadness and a conviction that I'd never be able to leave the house to a visit from my childless BFF where I plugged myself into the milking machine while talking to her.

[Medee]

That sounds like a positive action plan, rocket.

[Grumpla]

Good luck Rocket!

Please don't feel that you are 'failing' by having to give your lovely girl some formula at this stage. I was DEVASTATED when I had to, when DS was jaundiced and sleepy and not latching etc but honestly, it was for less than a week and once I got the hang of expressing (used a double lactaline pump) I was literally producing pints of the stuff! Absolutely no need for formula until I decided to stop BFing.

Are you eating enough pet? It's really easy to forget when you are stressing about expressing, latching, changing etc. I think my milk supply only really got going once I started eating proper food again. Have a nice big steak sarnie and a heeeeyoooge wodge of brie and a massive bar of chocolate and perhaps a little teeny tiny glass of champagne! You need a LOT of extra calories at the moment.

[CurlyCasper]

yes, that's a very good point - make sure you are eating enough and keeping up your iron levels etc! We'll send gin and doughnuts if we have to...

[Cyclebump]

Good lick Rocket, I had to mix feed for the first two weeks and felt like it was never going to happen. DS is now 7 weeks and gaining a pound a week on BFing alone.

I was advised to give an ounce or so of formula first to take the edge off H's hunger before attempting to latch him on as when he was starving it was impossible. It was the best advice we got, when he was calmer I had more time to get him on and he wasn't screaming!

[crikeybadger]

Have to say though Grumpla that eating properly won't actually make a difference to milk supply (or quality for that matter). It's a very well perpetuated myth.

That said, steak, brie, chocolate and champagne will probably make you feel a whole lot better rocketleaf.

Sounds like you've had a really hard start to breastfeeding, and a very complicated regime of feeding, expressing and topping up. You must be feeling fairly overwhelmed and worried.

Seems like a good plan to do lots of skin to skin and keep your baby close so you can watch for feeding cues. Try and feed at every little squeak- be that three hourly or half hourly- the more frequently, the better.

Hope your weekend goes well.

[rocketleaf]

Wooo! Breast start lady dropped the medina pump off so I hot compressed then massaged in the bath and i got 40 ml out. There was muchos squirting. Nips a bit tender but nothing like the Avent during the pumping(rubbish thing) Considering i only managed 10 mil hand expressing last time this is a major relief as it means we will only have to give 20 ml of formula at the next feed. If this keeps improving then I am happy to EBF for a bit until we can get the latch sorted.

Drom i will check out the teats, we have the tommy tippee ones at the mo which hopefully should also promote a proper latch. I am hoping we won't have to use them for long enough for it to be a problem but if we do then I will defo invest in better ones.

Grumpla, my friends have been dropping food off but i haven't been eating huge meals. I have just haven't felt very hungry but now I am bloody starving! so will take your advice. Beef stew, potato dumplings and B&J rocky rd for afters ;-) You have just reminded me how much i wanted a brie and salami sandwich. TB will be out to get some for me tomorrow. Also taking some the pregnancy multi vits and have some spatine still kicking about.

I also suspect I might be getting a bit of an infection down below which i will have to keep a very close eye on. Its a bit tingly although not much discharge and temp is slightly elevated but not over 100. any tips for sorting it out before it gets worse? Obviously will check with MW tomorrow and go to drop in centre for antibiotics if it gets worse. (joy!) but i feel able to deal with that. But I actually feel able to deal with this, whereas a day or two ago it would prob have finished me off.

cyclebump, that is such a good idea. Or i could use expressed milk, I actually don't mind doing it really.

My sister is going to come up tomorrow, she had very similar problems with her first. Hoping we can get BabyLeaf a bit more alert and happy then sort the latch.

Thanks again for all your comments and kind thoughts. This really is not like me, think it has all come at once along with the baby blues, there are a couple of other factors which have exacerbated it as well but hopefully this is the turning of the corner.

[theborrower]

Hi Rocket, just wanted to say that I probably could have written your opening post 9 months ago too! It helped me to know that I wasn't the only one having BF problems - I know it's an odd thing to say, but there was strange comfort in that, if you see what I mean. I was also on the 3 hourly feed/top up/express regime, so I know how knackering it can be. Don't be afraid to ban visitors! People will be excited and want to see the baby, but they can wait, you've got important snuggle time and feeding time to see to :)

We had a few more complications I think, but it also turned out that my daughter also had a tongue tie. It was picked up in the hospital but all teh midwives disagreed about it and subsequently nothing was done about it until she was almost 8 weeks old. It would be worth getting this checked for (again, if it has already been done).

Try not to stress, Wishing you all the best x

[nometime]

Hi Rocket, hope things are getting better for you.

I could have been you 12 years ago and also 8 years ago!! I mixed fed both of them -bf in the morning and during the night but from mid afternoon and during the evening/night they were bottle fed because I just never had enough milk. Don't worry about giving her some formula, whether it's for a little while or whether you mix feed, it won't harm her, honestly. My ds's seem to be fine!!

Some of the tips I did get that worked were rugby ball hold, stripping ds off down to just nappy or vest to wake him up as he kept nodding off and was a poor latcher. Also every time he seemed to unlatch/drop off to tickle the bottom of his feet or to very gently pull his earlobe - just seemed to bring him back to action..

Most importantly you must make sure that you drink plenty plenty plenty.

Good luck and don't beat yourself up about this it will be fine.

[Sheilathegreat]

Rocket Just wanted to add when my DD was born nearly three years ago if I'd of heard of Mumsnet I too could have written your post! A mixed-fed my DD for three months before she rejected the bottle and I began to EBF. I probably could have started to EBF long before then but my confidence had been massively dented and I was sure I couldn't produce enough milk.

Anyhow after that shaky start I BF her until she was 13 months and have always felt massively proud that I got through the tough times and achieved this. I recognise your determination and am sure if you continue in this you will get there too.

Good luck, and remember to go easy on yourself. BF-ing is a wonderful experience and the best thing for your baby but you need to use that as motivation not as an added pressure or reason for guilt.

All the best. xx

[Redhairmum]

Just wanted to add my support, bf is VERY hard to start with- a whole new skill for both of you, but you will get there. Before having DS I thought it would be easy, but had lots of frustration & crying at beginning. Can now bf but still find expressing a nightmare. You are doing all the right things and should be proud of yourself and babyleaf for perservering. Keep reminding yourself of how well you are doing- this parenting lark is HARD.

Much luv and hugs

[DorcasB]

Sorry you are having such a hard time. I also really struggled at first with my DD. Despite latching on in the hospital, with help from MW, she couldn't latch on once home and was too sleepy to really try. We ended up back at the hospital the next day, she was jaundiced and I had to give her formula as she was dehydrated. I still feel sick thinking about how she went for so long without feeding- I just thought she was sleepy and would let me know she was hungry . Anyway, I did manage to re-establish bfing the following day, but it was a real struggle and after three weeks of this she was found to have a posterior Tongue tie. Several bf counsellors had wrongly told me she didn't have one, but a posterior TT is harder to spot, so it might be worth getting a second opinion from someone with experience of posterior TTs. It may not be that but just wanted to let you know to be aware of this. It sounds like you are doing an amazing job, please don't feel guilty about anything. I'm sure that you'll get there in the end. Despite a really tough start I'm now EBF at four weeks. Good luck and congratulations on your new baby!

[DorcasB]

Four months not four weeks...

[PollyPoo]

How are you today Rocket? I hope things are improving and you are feeling more positive. xx

[haloflo]

Been following this thread during night feeds and just wanted to say that you are doing brillantly. Asking for help is hard and you will know that you couldn't have done more however things work out.

Just wondered if you are leaking milk in between feeds or on the other side during feeds. If you are you could use breast shells to catch milk in to give as a top up. Easier than expressing although I don't know how they affect your supply. Maybe someone in the know could confirm that or you could ask your MW?

They are also good because I found breast pads stick to sore nipples and the breast milk is constantly on the nipple soothing it.

Oh and congratulations on your daughter. Baby girls are amazing.

[yukoncher]

Hey, so sorry you're had such a rough time.
Breastfeeding can be difficult in the early days.
It was for me too, Since then I've spent a combined almost 4 yrs breastfeeding my beebies between them :)
Proud mama.

So glad it's starting to work out for you. You're a star for persevering through this :)

[rocketleaf]

My sister is here and just helped what felt like v successful feed on both sides although it is still hurting when she sucks i think that is just over used nips!!

Just bobbing on to update you all as really need a kip now. Xx

[crikeybadger]

hey, good on yer! //smile

deffo sleep when you can.

[Medee]

Sounds like good progress.