Please help. I think i have ruined my chances of BFing my daughter :(

[rocketleaf]

Its a bit of a long story but basically I couldn't get my daughter to latch on after initially suckling after birth so thr MWs at the hospital had me extress colostrum to feed her with syringe. After that she was really sleepy and we couldnt get her to latch on. I had about 6 different people tell me different ways and things (for instance one said my nips are flat and use guards, another poo pooed that) but no one actually got her to suckle. In a weak moment i asked them to give her some formula by cup just so i could get some sleep as hadnt slept in about 4 days. In the end before they would discharge us they made us agree to do this complicated feed/give expressed/top up with formula routine every 3 hours, which stupidly we followed for about 3 feeds on wed night. I was really unhappy about this as i didnt want to bottle feed her let alone with formula ut they had really knocked my confidence and implied she would starve otherwise although i was still able to express colostrum.
When I saw my community MW yesterday morning she said it was bollocks and then SUre start came and they gave the same advice re positioning etc that i already l knew but doesnt seem to work with my DD and told me just to go with skin to skin and feed and combo express. All the stuff I thought I knew before going into hospital anyway.
Yesterday I decided it would be breast only, she started sucking and my milk came through so i thought we had turned a corner but then she became really rough, chomping on my nipples and really hurting and getting really distressed, coming off and on or stopping feeding. I have read loads of stuff on the internet and tried relatching and relatching again and again but still cant seem to get it right. Like she was really hungry and wanting to suck my not getting enough if any. I was still able to express some milk yesterday but we had to feed her all of that just toget her to sleep. It got to the point when she screamed everytime i took her near the breast. Last night we tried a bath together and that really helped her to calm down with me although i didnt really get her to feed agian. But it also woke her up so we had togove her all the xpressed milk and she still wouldnt sleep.

I have just got up because my breast were engorged again and my husband had brought her to bed after staying up with her to let me sleep. I have only managed to expressa 20 ml and its all ground to a halt. Breasts still engorged and nipples are wrecked. I dont know what I am gong to do when she wakes up wanting to be fed.

I never kidded myself that it would be easy but now am really worried that i have screwed up my milk supply, turned her into a ravenous beast with those few formula feeds and no idea what i am going to do when she wakes next.

I also dont think the pump i have is very good (avent) as it makes my nips bleed but maybe this is normal?

I know damn well that me being up at 4.30 stressing about this is not going to help but I can't help it. :( I really dont want to resort to formula but also am worried as she is only 5 days old that she will loose weight or be really stressed and over hungry. Sorry this is a bit incoherent too. Please help.

Just found your thread again, great to hear that there has been improvement!
I was going to write about all the things we did to get back to breast only, but it sounds as if you are already well on your way and will probably get there before I would have finished writing .

You've been doing so well! Hats off to you!

When moaning to a friend about how hard it all was, she said something along the lines of 'well what did you expect, you have a baby, of course it's hard'. That really put me off - of course it's not a walk in the park, but sometimes it is easier and sometimes it is harder, and we had definitely fallen on the harder side. I think some people who have no problems with BF cannot grasp how hard it can be when you're struggling. So I just want to reiterate: Been there, know how hard it is, you're fantastic for being so 'stubborn'!
And, always good to remember: It will only get easier from now on. As Dorcas said (waves) at some point you will probably look back and not understand how you managed to do it... but you did!

sounds good, Rocket.

Mieta, when we took babyleaf to the hospital because of the lack if poop, we were giving the senior consultant a run down of the BFing problems. When i spoke about the pain she said "oh well the latch probably just wasn't right," very dismissively, like it was a simple thing to fix or like I didn't know that. I couldn't be bothered to go into the Tongue tie etc but it's obvious she just thought it was an easy thing to sort. Like you say I think if you haven't experienced it then it's very hard to understand.

Thanks for finding me again. Any advice re getting back on that you think might help would be great as I certainly don't think it's over yet!! If you have the time that is. I think right now it's a question if getting the positioning right. Then I'd really like to try and get her feeding lying down as haven't been able to crack that at all. Although this too might come later. Also morning feeds are easier as nips arnt as sore. I'll prob be freaking out again later!!

I realise how lucky I have been to have the support of this thread and especially my DH. There was a lady at the clinic who was there last week who was obviously struggling with similar problems to me and the LC also suspected Tongue tie (certainly looked a little tied to me). She had latched on last week but not been able to do it again herself and sounded like shd didn't have any support at home and also had older kids as well so she was struggling to find the tine to express etc. She looked really freaked out at the thought of the TT and the snip. Poor thing! I tried to play it down as it's such a simple op but then again it's not a quick fix either.

People who run down Mumsnet for being a nest of vipers just need to look at threads like these. So glad for you lovelyleaf, just seeing you sounding happier every day, it's brill.

I'll admit it doesn't seem to be getting any less painful but ivseem to be able to bear it a bit better. In a way it reminds me of labour, I got through each surge at a time thinking each one was going to be the last one I could cope with. Although I suppose with this it's getting less intense instead of more.

Oops hit post by accident. Couldn't agree more boo ive never really understood the nest of vipers thing as people on here have always been amazing to me from day one. Apart from the AIBU to make jam thread :o

Rocket, how are you today?

Well our situations are quite different, as we had different causes for the feeding trouble and chose different top-up methods and all. I was never really worried about nipple confusion but always about supply. Didn't really have latching problems (never any pain or soreness) but baby was too weak to feed.

So just pick and choose what applies to you!
I do totally agree with what someone said already, I think it was Japhrimel: Before you drop any top-ups or such, make sure your supply is established, and you're making enough milk for babyleaf. I.e. wait until you don't need any formula. Also I wouldn't start fooling around with things until I were certain that baby is putting on weight and generally healthy.

Unlike someone else who just reduced the amount baby got in top-ups gradually, that didn't work for us. DS had learned that there was going to be a bottle after the boob so he left space for dessert so to say, and nearly aways finished the bottle. We did reduce from 80ml after each feed (that was at 6 feeds/day) to 60ml on LC's advice. But I don't think we were going to 'gradually' get down from that.
So what we did is, we dropped whole top-ups. We went drastically down from 6 to 4, from one day to the next. That way DS learned quite quickly that there wasn't always going to be a bottle after the boob, and started bf more. We dropped the mid-morning and the mid-afternoon top-up. It was hard work - initially he was obviously still expecting the top-up, so didn't feed enough from boob, ergo he complained when there was no bottle. Managed to calm him down, but he hadn't had enough, so he was hungry and asking for more very soon - sometimes after 30 minutes already. So the first two days or so after dropping the two top-ups, it felt like I was constantly feeding. No more 'feeding every 4 hours' ...
After a few days, things settled down, and already it was such a relief - only having to express, and bottle feed, 4 times a day rather than 6 times!
After a week we dropped another whole top-up; the lunchtime one. That meant he now only got topups in the early morning (4, 5 am -ish), evening, and midnight. Again, when we dropped the top-up, he was feeding constantly for a couple of days. But afterwards, it was pure freedom! No faffing around with bottles, pumps, sterilisers, all day long! (Only at night...) From here on we definitely went to 7 feeds/day rather than the earlier 6.
Next we dropped the early morning top-up, and stayed like that for a while - two top-ups /day seemed really not very much trouble. Then the evening top-up, and finally the midnight one.
I chose to keep the nighttime top-ups until last, because at night I just couldn't deal with worrying about him getting enough, having to faff around for hours for him to be on the breast long enough, or having to feed constantly. When we did eventually drop them, it was quite pain-free as the association he had (boob means top-up afterwards) had already been broken, and he was used to feeding plenty from boob.

On and a little comment on the side: about 4 weeks after we had dropped the last top-up, we tried to give him some EBM in a bottle so that I could go out in the evening for a few hours. DS flatly refused. We never did get him to drink from a bottle again. By around 7 months this did quite annoy me, I felt tied down, we couldn't send DS to a childminder, couldn't ever leave him to a babysitter, I couldn't ever sleep through a night with DP doing the night feeding, ... but by around 8 months we had him drinking from certain cups (we tried about 10 different types until one worked), so things improved. All I'm saying is you might want to consider keeping a bottle going, perhaps one every two to three days. Just to give yourself some options.

oh x-posted. comes from writing up a long post and being interrupted by baby waking up from nap in the middle .

Yes sounds like our situations are different Mieta but it's good advice to protect my supply. I know it can be fragile until 6 weeks or so. However i seem to be expressing more since doing more bfing so hoping that is a good sign. Babyleaf is different in that she doesn't really want the top ups after a feed and i am not offering it unless she looks obviously hungry because I suspect she would just have 10 20 mils for the sake of it and I'd rather avoid the bottle as much as possible. I'd rather just give her a quick feed if she's still hungry later. But I am still expressing if she goes for longer than a couple of hours between feeds or if they start to feel full

I think she is feeding ok and I'm not worried about her weight now. Shes putting on around an oz a day by the looks of it. Now she is well over birth weight I am happy to feed on demand during the day and then top up or give a bottle instead at night (as she goes much longer during between feeds) my only concern is that she might not be getting enough 'hind milk' she will be weighed again on Tuesday so if weight gain has slowed then I will have a rethink about what we are doing.

And yes once we get established I am going to keep giving the odd bottle to keep her in practice for later. Amazing how quickly they forget!! But after getting her BFing initially and then her forgetting how so quickly it's a lesson learned!

Rocket you are doing fantastically!
I just wanted you to know that my DD only ever fed for 10 mins MAX (total feeding) and I just tried to remember which boob she'd used so I could use the other one the next time :) the amount of time spent feeding isn't relevant if they are putting on weight. That said however, she fed precisely every 2 hours for the first 4 months...efficient but frequent!
The other thing I wanted to say which might be really stupid but DD was never able to feed without me 'squashing' the breast to make it easier for her to latch. I was never able to feed without doing that until she was at least 3 months old. I don't have mahoosive breasts but they seemed fairly solid and difficult for her to get a grasp on We also never managed the lying down feeding for the same reason. Sometimes you see people feeding 'hands free' and I wonder how the hell they manage :)

Thanks macca means a lot to know you are lurking you know. I've been trying to use the exaggerated latch - seems works better for me that making my nip 'mouth shaped' iyswim. Not sure if I am doing itvright thi. Also I've noticed that if I compress a bit then It hurts less so wonder if that means she gets a bit more boob. It's all trial and error!!

Hi rocketleaf

So great to hear that things are starting to click in to place.

The weight gain is fantastic

here is a link about how to breastfeed lying down. Not sure if it will be useful- I just used to sit and feed then gradually rather awkwardly roll over on to one side.

hth.

Oh and don't worry too much about hind milk and having to engineer it all, if baby rocket is coming off the breast after a feed, and seems happy then all is fine. You could offer the other one to see if she fancies a bit more from that side.

My MW always said to offer both - and start the next feed with the one you finished off with. I think I said that already didn't I Sprocks? I seem to remember a chat about bracelets!

Thing is she doesnt often come off of her own accord. I often have to take her off because it's got too painful, the latch slips or sometimes she stops sucking unless I try and take the boob away. I'll then try and get her back on the same side and if not then offer the other side as well. That's the only reason I'm still questioning it really.

Plus she seems to be having trouble getting to sleep now. She falls asleep after feeding then five minutes after we put her down she wakes up and crys. It's probably completely unconnected but now I am wondering if she is actually still hungry. Ha it's such a bloody minevfield!!

Thanks for that link crikey I've saved it for when we are a bit mire confident at getting latched on.

Will she stay asleep if she's on you or in bed with you? She's probably missing your body next to hers. You could just shove her in a sling if you've got stuff to do.

No probs rocketleaf, it sounds like you're still trying to get that latch right for now.

I always remember that BertieBotts used to say that the first six weeks are like breastfeeding boot camp, and once you get through that you can breastfeeding hanging upside down in a tree.

Boo think she had got a bit overtired. Even on me she wasn't happy although TB managed to get her to sleep in the end. Normally she will sleep on me and then I can just lie her down next to me, cuddle and then move gentle away. Moses basket is getting less and less use at night!!

We just used to use the Moses for day naps downstairs, and only then because someone had given us such a swanky one it seemed a shame not to use it!

Just wanted to say Well Done Rocket!!

I have been following this thread whilst going through similar. My daughter is now 6 wks old - she was born by v quickly by emcs at 36+6 would initially take nipple in her mouth but too sleepy to do anything with it. She lost a lot of her birth weight & we gave in to MW pressure to feed her formula as they said she needed to eat; we then started expressing milk - at first MWs syringe feeding it then with a beaker (we weren't allowed to!) & topping her up with formula. We were allowed home when she was four days old - I managed to express regularly & she took breast milk from a bottle initially with us waking her every 3 hrs to feed then after she regained her birth weight allowing her to settle into her own pattern. We kept formula for the last feed everyday so I had enough expressed overnight. I tried her on the boob pretty sporadically and did skin to skin when I could (tbh it wasn't as often as I would've liked - feeding/expressing & sterilising takes a while!) ANYWAY on Wed this week I tried her on the boob again and this time she took a proper feed & she's been at it ever since My dh has continued to give her ebm in a bottle at bedtime (although she's not finished any of them) both he & my family have been fab and I'd like him to continue to have that time with her/to know she can still feed if I'm not there. We're now on day 3 of proper boob feeds. Def having to help her on & not sure what we do differently when it feels fab instead of stingy but we're still learning.

Will keep watching this thread but just wanted to say well done to you (and grab an unashamedly chance to share how fab my lo is to have got there too!) x

Oh well done Mctasitc!! That's brilliant :o Thanks so much for sharing your story, that's so encouraging. And well done to you LO too. It feels sometimes that things are not improving (especially at night) but then this morning was a bit better again. I think maybe my position sat in bed isn't as good as it seems to be better when i sit bolt upright on the sofa. I also felt I wasnt doing 'enough' skin to skin for a while despite having sat there half naked for half the day. Its hard as at some point you have to start having a life too but it seems she has at least gone back on now that maybe it was enough. I just hope some day she will just open her mouth wide rather than suckling the air and me having to time it just right. I know what you mean about not knowing what you have done differently when it feels better but the LC said that a tiny change in position can make all the difference, I am sure as your LO learns and gets bigger it will happen all the more often.

I ended up mostly bottle feeding last night and one side is feeling v sore again so i have just expressing on that side today to give it a rest. But she had a good feed this morning from the other side and no top up and is now deeply sleeping so guess thats good. On the other hand we havent had to give her formula for days now and have only used 2 of the seven little cartons we bought last week so thats another good thing.

We are heading out for the afternoon as a couple of our friends are emigrating to Oz and it's their goodbye send off. Luckily I have loads of EBM in hand as she hasnt been wanting it but I would quite like to feed her from the boob while out if I can. Not sure if I am confident enough in public especially if she starts messing around so wish me luck!!

FWIW I could never feed sitting up in bed in the early weeks.

Take a thing/wide scarf or shawl and just use it cover LO when latching on/off if you're feeling exposed.

rocket good luck with feeding out and about! I was not very confident initially either as DS would not just latch on and stay on, but rather would fuss around forever while latching on, and if he got it wrong, I would take him off again. So not very inconspicuous at all. At some point I just didn't care anymore. I think that was after I fed him in a train station during rush-hour. After that I thought, well I can't get much more public can I? So there, I'll just feed my baby when needed, never mind who's there. And when my baby needs feeding, then that is the top priority, never mind if anybody finds it embarrassing or has other plans or what. Because if I miss the right moment (when he starts routing but isn't yet crying) it will just get harder and harder...

thin scarf. Jeez.

oh, sitting up in bed was the only way I could feed in the early weeks I guess everyone is different eh? I never managed feeding while sitting in a chair/sofa for a long time. And if I did, I needed lots and lots of pillows! One behind my back to help me sit up straighter, several to help hold baby in position, oh and something to put my feet on (used to use a big fat book). But as someone said up-thread, at some point it starts to feel as if you could feed in just about any imaginable position...