Please help. I think i have ruined my chances of BFing my daughter :(

[rocketleaf]

Its a bit of a long story but basically I couldn't get my daughter to latch on after initially suckling after birth so thr MWs at the hospital had me extress colostrum to feed her with syringe. After that she was really sleepy and we couldnt get her to latch on. I had about 6 different people tell me different ways and things (for instance one said my nips are flat and use guards, another poo pooed that) but no one actually got her to suckle. In a weak moment i asked them to give her some formula by cup just so i could get some sleep as hadnt slept in about 4 days. In the end before they would discharge us they made us agree to do this complicated feed/give expressed/top up with formula routine every 3 hours, which stupidly we followed for about 3 feeds on wed night. I was really unhappy about this as i didnt want to bottle feed her let alone with formula ut they had really knocked my confidence and implied she would starve otherwise although i was still able to express colostrum.
When I saw my community MW yesterday morning she said it was bollocks and then SUre start came and they gave the same advice re positioning etc that i already l knew but doesnt seem to work with my DD and told me just to go with skin to skin and feed and combo express. All the stuff I thought I knew before going into hospital anyway.
Yesterday I decided it would be breast only, she started sucking and my milk came through so i thought we had turned a corner but then she became really rough, chomping on my nipples and really hurting and getting really distressed, coming off and on or stopping feeding. I have read loads of stuff on the internet and tried relatching and relatching again and again but still cant seem to get it right. Like she was really hungry and wanting to suck my not getting enough if any. I was still able to express some milk yesterday but we had to feed her all of that just toget her to sleep. It got to the point when she screamed everytime i took her near the breast. Last night we tried a bath together and that really helped her to calm down with me although i didnt really get her to feed agian. But it also woke her up so we had togove her all the xpressed milk and she still wouldnt sleep.

I have just got up because my breast were engorged again and my husband had brought her to bed after staying up with her to let me sleep. I have only managed to expressa 20 ml and its all ground to a halt. Breasts still engorged and nipples are wrecked. I dont know what I am gong to do when she wakes up wanting to be fed.

I never kidded myself that it would be easy but now am really worried that i have screwed up my milk supply, turned her into a ravenous beast with those few formula feeds and no idea what i am going to do when she wakes next.

I also dont think the pump i have is very good (avent) as it makes my nips bleed but maybe this is normal?

I know damn well that me being up at 4.30 stressing about this is not going to help but I can't help it. :( I really dont want to resort to formula but also am worried as she is only 5 days old that she will loose weight or be really stressed and over hungry. Sorry this is a bit incoherent too. Please help.

www.ann-dobson.co.uk

I should start asking her for a referal fee . But seriously, she is amazing when it comes to TTs. She will travel most places (she saw us in Yorkshire).

Clicking, mis-shappen nipples after a feed (sometimes looks like an unused lipstick), maybe a white line across the nipple, all symptoms. Take a look here for a list:

www.ann-dobson.co.uk/tongue-tie_symptoms.html

Not sure if it's clicking of just s normal sucking noise. Thanks for that referral carrots Ill contact her and see if she xan help. Both MW and BF councillor agree the latch position is right, neither had heard of posterior TT. I am still hoping it is just down to the combination of all the expressing, the size of her mouth and all the initial messing about but it's not looking good. It scares me that most tts have not got it sorted for weeks and weeks, how do they cope?

We have had some good feeds today but so painful. Still it's nice to feel both breasts have emptied. Still dreading next feed, it's making me so sad as really want to enjoy this time with my daughter and I'm feeling I am only just holding it together. She is starting to smile and be more alert and stay awake more but that means more feeding. I feel terrible for being grateful she is sleepy. :-(

rocket I can totally empathise. I was determined to bf my daughter so persevered despite being in agony and there were many times when I dreaded her waking up for a feed and of course I felt so guilty for feeling like that. Despite the pain I loved the closeness of bfing and I think that's what kept me going although I look back now and feel sad that it was such a distressing experience to begin with. It didn't help that I kept being told by everyone I consulted that the latch was perfect- I honestly thought i was going insane. Which is why I recommend anyone experiencing pain when bf to rule out TT. I was sure it couldnt be as had had her checked for it already and she had no obvious signs, but then posterior TT is hard to see. The lactation consultant I saw about it said that one in seven babies have it and half of those are posterior. It makes me that this isn't more widely known about by MWs and bf counsellors.
Sorry for rant, just wanted to say that, whatever the reason for the pain, I can really relate to what your going through. It is bloody hard bfing when in pain and you are doing amazingly to keep going. Hope that things start to improve soon.

Rocket some more info here on clicking and causes. There are a few possible causes. Some are fine and you shouldn't worry provided there is no pain. But you have some pain - as lots of ladies have suggested TT is one possible cause. Or other issues relating to the mouth. But thrush is also a possible cause.

Thinking again I dont think it can be thrush. It wouldn't have started so early. It must be to do with the latch or a tongue tie. Or just will clear up when things calm down (looking increasingly unlikely)

Do not feel guilty about any of that stuff. The first part of bf can be hard for some people and you don't have to enjoy being in pain. I dreaded ds waking up, I could actually feel my stomach turning over like the dread before an interview or exam. And now its so easy and doesn't hurt (except when he's getting used to a new tooth!).

If you can get through this difficult bit you will have lovely feeds in the future, when they unlatch to giggle at you and then go back to feeding - so cute!

Have you got a local bf support group you can go to (search here). I found it really helped me to see light at the end of the tunnel. You'll meet people who have surmounted millions of problems.

Pretty rough night. I am going to start mixed feeding again as I am sure she is not getting enough milk from my breast only.

Breast start just phoned and have offered to get in touch with the Lactation Consultant at the hospital where I had her (i didn't think they had one). If I can get that sorted on the NHS it will be amazing!! Otherwise there is Milkmatters in Yorkshire who will come out but that will cost us a fortune in travel expenses so I am hoping the hospital come through.

If anyone has any advice on mixed feeding they could give me I would be very grateful as not sure how to do it properly re quantities etc.
Do you have to give expressed then top up with formula each time as I am not sure I will be able to express enough for each feed.

Rocket I hope the Lactation Consultant will come through! Ours was wonderful. I get very cross though: We were in hospital for the first 10 days of DS' life, had massive feeding problems (so much so that DS had to be tube-fed for two days), the lactation consultant was a few doors away - and no-one ever suggested we might see her. Every MW and every nursery nurse (we saw about 15 different ones) thought they knew it all and kept wanting to show me how to latch on properly - my latch was spot on. Why do they even have specialists when they don't use them?

But sorry I digress. Re advice on mixed feeding, it really depends on what you want: a) to mix feed temporarily while you work on getting your supply up/overcoming TT or whatever it is that is making problems and then get back to BF fully, or b) mix feed until weaning, or c) mix feed now and gradually move on to FF fully.

You can do it you know, but you have to want it. If you don't make a conscious effort, c) will be the most likely outcome of mix feeding. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with that except if it isn't what you want.

We went from 80ml top-ups after every single feed to no bottles at all. It was very hard work and I couldn't have done it without huge support from DP who did ALL the nighttime bottle top-ups (and sterilising and everything) despite going to work at day. I desperately wanted to go back to BF only, and am now at 9 months still BF, but in hindsight I'm not sure it was worth the effort. As there is nothing wrong with mix feeding, you know. People will say it is a quick road to FF only, but it doesn't have to be if you know about the dangers and what to do about it.

You have been so strong already. You are doing the best you can for your daughter. And you CAN get back to BF only if you want to. You can do it! But you don't have to if it's all too much. Your DD needs you to look after yourself too.

Thanks mieta. You have been full if wonderful advice. Tbh at this point I don't really care what the outcome is. I just want her to be healthy. This whole thing is further complicated by the fact she has a tiny hole in her heart. This should fix instelf as she grows but that is why I am so paranoid about not feeding properly. Her sleepiness and lack of poo is also worrying, there is obviously something up.
At the mo I am going to see how I get on expressing but it's like a full time job. I suspect she would take everything I have expressed in the last 4 hours in a few minutes.
No answer from the hospital (typical) so have left a message. Hope they get back to me today but I know how these things work.

rocket you need to really make a fuss with the hosp I think to get this sorted.

I agree with cos. Regarding Milk Matters, she's wonderful (I've been there) but she can't do tongue snips herself and she will refer to you Ann Dobson, or another IBCLC TT specialist if Ann's not able to come to you. She CAN diagnose them though, and if it's not TT she will work out what it is.

Ann, being an IBCLC, can do both so not worth paying for both really.

Don't forget that Milk Matters have a free phone service and she will be a great help just working through what's going on with that.

It's not cheap, but it's a darned site cheaper than formula.

Bloody NHS should cover it, though.

rocket I do think looking after a newborn IS like a full time job or more. And if your newborn is not well, it can easily turn into two or three full-time jobs. I can remember at some point in the middle of the night when DP said to me, wonderingly, 'I never thought having a baby would use up every single minute of both of our time.' But rest assured, there is light at the end of the tunnel!

Yes do make a fuss. Do you have a phone number for a health visitor? You could call them and tell them that you REALLY NEED to see the lactation consultant and could they please sort it for you. If the MW is not doing her job properly.

When we were in A&E because DS wasn't feeding, was looking skinnier and skinnier even though he was over 2 weeks old and way past the 'it's normal to loose weight in the first 10 days' phase and was crying of hunger but too exhausted to feed, they asked me to BF him - I tried but couldn't get him to feed (it not being quite the most relaxed environment in A&E...). They then asked if they could give him a bottle of formula, I agreed, he guzzled down 80ml in one go. Hence they advised that I top him up with 80ml after every feed (they also checked him for infections and I was glad they were able to rule that out). Perhaps that is how you could work out how much you need to give your DD for now. BF her, then give her as much from a bottle as she will take. Then take that as a guide for how much to give her.

If you'd like to keep her on the breast, I'd suggest offering her the breast at every feed, either at first or after having stilled the worst of her hunger by bottle.

If it is going to be expressing for now, you can use that to keep your supply up despite the FF, and to increase it over time. When I started expressing I got about 20 or 30 ml per go, after a while I got up to 190ml.
The secret to upping your supply is not in how long you feed, but in how often you feed. BF your DD as often as you can, even if it's only for very short intervals. If she's asleep, express. That will let your hormones know they need to get going! Just don't express just before feeding!
Yes this means you are doing nothing else. You're feeding your baby, or expressing, nearly non-stop. But having a newborn, you should not need to be doing anything else anyway... (I know, ideal world and all that)

Been in touch with Charlotte from milk matters all day and did their email form etc. She has been fab and says there is definitely Tongue tie and lots of birth compression. which is consistent with my long early labour, posterior position and quite speedy final stage. Lucky for us Ann is going to be in the north at the end of the week so she can do us as well. We could go the NHS route if we xan convince them it is Tongue tie but there is a week waiting list for the snip even so. At this stage, I feel every day is crucial so we are going to go with Ann especially as she can begin osteopathy for the in the same session for the compression. I hope I am not pinning too much on this but feel so much better for having a plan.

Brilliant Rocket - how has today been?

Rocket you do know it is fabulous how you are persisting, don't you? Wishing you all the best.

Yay rocket. Charlotte is brilliant, isn't she :) Ann is, as I've already said, wonderful. Can't wait to hear how you get on!

Just read the entire thread and I just wanted to say that you're doing so so well Rocket!!!

Thanks ladies. Today has been better, very up and down still, DH has been struggling a bit, he got a bit upset about the Tongue tie and the idea if the op bit wary of someone 'off the internet'. I guess ad I'm the one doing the research it's easier fir me to understand.

Haven't done much bf today to try and save my nips but have been expressing between 30-4o ml then topping up. She has been much more alert and interactive today. remains to be seen what comes with the night but hopefully we have a bit if a routine established.

Of to try and get sone sleep if babyleaf allows it.

Onwards and upward lovelyleaf. Glad your poor nips have had a break today, and hope you've been able to enjoy her a bit more.

Well done for hanging in there rocketleaf.

Great that you can see someone next week and it must be reassuring that at least you know what the problem is now.

It is quite amazing just how many cases of tt are coming up at the moment. There are at least a couple every week at our breastfeeding support group but most mothers report hugely improved feeding immediately afterwards.

Let's hope seeing Ann next week is the turning point and you can start to enjoy breastfeeding your little babyleaf.

That's great news rocket. Definitely get it sorted as soon as you can. When you are bf a newborn, ie non bloody stop, and in pain each time, a day can feel like forever. Well done for persevering, you are amazing for keeping going. The procedure itself is really straightforward. I know there's no point saying don't worry, I remember feeling sick at the thought of it. But honestly, it is a very little, painless snip. My daughter had a brief cry, I fed her immediately and she was right as rain. Consultant said she probably cried more from being held still than anything else. Hope you have a good night tonight.

Rocket you are doing amazingly.

Hi Rocket. You are doing so well, I can't imagine what a nightmare this has been for you. So glad it seems like you are getting somewhere,although isn't it frustrating that new mothers have to push so hard to get this help!!
Anyway after reading the whole thread I wanted to come on and add my support to you. Glad she is more awake and alert,that's a brilliant sign. TT is so easy to sort out and once she's had it snipped I'm sure everything will be fine.
You've had such amazing advice on here (do I spot some fellow BF peer supporters on here?) and more than anything you have been determined to feed your baby girl and overcome obstacles in your way-what a wonderful mummy you are! Big well done and also good luck from me

I'm just checking in to say that I'm still checking in, rocket! Well done persisting this far, I'm glad to hear you're getting some professional input - it's reassuring to know that people are there with you.

Rocket just adding myself to the cheerleading squad, you are doing so well to keep at this. Glad you are getting some support. I hadn't realised she had a hole on her heart too, hope that all heals quickly itself.

Keep expressing when you're not feeding - I only ever got 30-40ml when I was expressing in the NNU, it's loads more now.