Please help. I think i have ruined my chances of BFing my daughter :(

[rocketleaf]

Its a bit of a long story but basically I couldn't get my daughter to latch on after initially suckling after birth so thr MWs at the hospital had me extress colostrum to feed her with syringe. After that she was really sleepy and we couldnt get her to latch on. I had about 6 different people tell me different ways and things (for instance one said my nips are flat and use guards, another poo pooed that) but no one actually got her to suckle. In a weak moment i asked them to give her some formula by cup just so i could get some sleep as hadnt slept in about 4 days. In the end before they would discharge us they made us agree to do this complicated feed/give expressed/top up with formula routine every 3 hours, which stupidly we followed for about 3 feeds on wed night. I was really unhappy about this as i didnt want to bottle feed her let alone with formula ut they had really knocked my confidence and implied she would starve otherwise although i was still able to express colostrum.
When I saw my community MW yesterday morning she said it was bollocks and then SUre start came and they gave the same advice re positioning etc that i already l knew but doesnt seem to work with my DD and told me just to go with skin to skin and feed and combo express. All the stuff I thought I knew before going into hospital anyway.
Yesterday I decided it would be breast only, she started sucking and my milk came through so i thought we had turned a corner but then she became really rough, chomping on my nipples and really hurting and getting really distressed, coming off and on or stopping feeding. I have read loads of stuff on the internet and tried relatching and relatching again and again but still cant seem to get it right. Like she was really hungry and wanting to suck my not getting enough if any. I was still able to express some milk yesterday but we had to feed her all of that just toget her to sleep. It got to the point when she screamed everytime i took her near the breast. Last night we tried a bath together and that really helped her to calm down with me although i didnt really get her to feed agian. But it also woke her up so we had togove her all the xpressed milk and she still wouldnt sleep.

I have just got up because my breast were engorged again and my husband had brought her to bed after staying up with her to let me sleep. I have only managed to expressa 20 ml and its all ground to a halt. Breasts still engorged and nipples are wrecked. I dont know what I am gong to do when she wakes up wanting to be fed.

I never kidded myself that it would be easy but now am really worried that i have screwed up my milk supply, turned her into a ravenous beast with those few formula feeds and no idea what i am going to do when she wakes next.

I also dont think the pump i have is very good (avent) as it makes my nips bleed but maybe this is normal?

I know damn well that me being up at 4.30 stressing about this is not going to help but I can't help it. :( I really dont want to resort to formula but also am worried as she is only 5 days old that she will loose weight or be really stressed and over hungry. Sorry this is a bit incoherent too. Please help.

[Cosmosis]

I agree with the sleepy/ hunger as a possibility. I think that it would still be a good idea to do the whole bath / bed/ skin to skin feed feed baby moon thing, partly because YOU must be absolutely exhausted.

You really are doing brilliantly though, it's a real inspiration to read your posts and see how much you just want the absolute best for Tilly, whatever that is.

x

[rocketleaf]

Gah!!! MW sent us to children's hospital because of the elusive poo. 4 hrs 2 docs and just the threat of a suppository have elicited a ginormous poonami. Made us look like total pfb over protective parents but upside is she has been examined and is fine. Also she weighed over birth weight today although i suspect that poo must have been a few oz. So not sure how it can be hunger making her sleepy. But anyway, gonna keep on keeping on and see what happens. Problem is I haven't been able to express all afternoon.

[crikeybadger]

Not pfb at all rocketleaf, especially as the mw sent you.

Like you say, at least she's been examined as all is well and being past birth weight is another good sign. She must be coming up for 2 weeks is that right?

How are you getting on with putting her on the breast now?

[Cosmosis]

At least her being examined gives you reassurance that she is not starving :) you now can tell yourself that she is healthy and doing well. You're doing great.

[Medee]

good news about the weight, Rocket. Remember, BF babies can go several days without a poo, so don't panic too much.

Give us an "R", "R"...
Give us an "O", "O"...
Give us a "C", "C"...

[rocketleaf]

Still very fussy going on the breast and doesn't really suck. However I am going to keep trying whenever she is awake enough. Just ran in the house, cracked off 20 ml to give her as she was looking hungry (only 2.5 hrs after last feed which is a first) then managed a further 80 ml. So she has had her full lot with some to spare for later. It's a rum business this expressing as would have thought the afternoon at the hospital would have made me too stressed. So yes must be the peace of mind knowing she is 'officially' healthy.

I do wonder if her being backed up has cOntributed to her not demanding and if she will be more regular now or if we ate going to have one of those babies that only poos once a week (would be nice after the initial worry it caused!)

Cos, not sure I sm built for the baby moon. More comfy on the sofa really and we don't have tv in the bedroom so I get bored. But am trying to get a few hours skin to skin in the morning and am trying to bath together every other day at least. Hopefully we'll get there eventually.

[Cosmosis]

sofa counts, just cuddle your gorgeous girl and laze about :)

[rocketleaf]

Sounds good to me!! So lucky TB had taken a further 2 weeks annual leave. Not sure what we would have done if he were back to work tomorrow.

Crrikey, sorry I didn't answer, yes she is 2 weeks tomorrow.

[MadameBoo]

Good to read all this Rocket. I've been away this weekend and was worrying about you.

[Meita]

Rocket how are things going today?

One thing I thought I might mention, because when my lactation consultant said it to me it really helped:

BF is NOT going to be as stressful and time consuming in the future, as it is now. Pretty soon you will find that a feed will only take you 10, maybe 15 minutes - ALL done. If you work out how to feed lying down in bed (best thing to happen to me :) ) you might hardly wake up properly when feeding at night.

I couldn't really believe that when I was first told. We were up at least 90 minutes every time baby needed feeding. What with nappy change, attempt to BF, warm up previously expressed milk, then bottle feed, then express, holding baby upright for 20 minutes and burping after bottle feed (else all would just come back out), washing/sterilising pump and stuff ready for next feed - but that's not normal. That's the exception, and pretty soon you will have come through this phase. It is worth persevering now because this is NOT how BF will always be like, BF will be lots easier and quicker very soon.

It's great that your DH/DP has some extra time off. Mine did too - I don't think I would have been able to keep going if he hadn't been around. Which would have been such a pity!

[Orchid12]

Rocket I've only just seen this but wanted to send you big hugs. You're doing a fantastic and your determination to carry on is brilliant. I can remember when mini O was little feeling very like you do now and it was overwhelming. You must go easy on yourself and believe that this will all be sorteed soon.

I hope you're feeling more relaxed and that the skin to skin/bathtime is helping. I second LGG on not holding the back of the head, but letting her have a go at latching herself.

Don't worry about the expressing either. I always struggled to express enough (and needed a photo etc to enable let down), but I managed to feed O until he was 17 months in the end after worrying endlessly at the start that I simply didn't produce enough milk for him. I hand a hand pump to start with which I found tedious, so I bought the Medela Swing and that was great. Your body will work out soon enough how much milk it needs to produce, so don't worry about over/under supply for now. It's still early days and a few milk soaked t-shirts are nothing that can't be sorted.

The pooing thing is a funny one with BF babies. I have friends whose babies poo every time they are fed, and others that don't go for days on end. I can remember phoning NHS direct on Christmas day (yes, I know!) because O hadn't pooed for days and I was worried about him not getting enough milk to enable him to go. The lady I spoke to was brilliant and very reassuring, saying that as long as they are putting on weight (which I think sprout is doing?) then not to worry too much. One thing she told me to try was when changing his nappy, to use warm water and cotton wool and press very gently on his bum whilst holding his legs up. This did work for us on several occasions when I thought he might have been constipated.

Much love to you.

[rocketleaf]

Mieta, just wanted to say thanks for your posts, it's good to know that you have been through such a similar experience and are now BFing. I think that's what I find so frustrating is that if only she would take the boob things would be so different. I am finding it REALLY hard to see how I will ever get there at the moment as I can only get her to try to latch on a few times a day when she is awake and then it's not even remotely successful, I can't get her to suck at all now. Night times are the hardest especially as she seems to wake up after the 1/2 am feed, last night i didn't get back to sleep to about 4. We are still trying to finger feed but I think we are going to have to bottle feed at night as it just takes so much longer.

Can I ask what pump you used to express? I am still using the medela hand pump as the electric one cossie so kindly sent me seems to have stopped working for me although need to try again as havent for a few days.

Off to osteo now so hoping that will also effect another small improvement.

Boo, hope your weekend away was lovely xx

[rocketleaf]

Thanks ourkid although milk soaked tees would be a dream come true right now. :)

[MadameBoo]

Good luck with the Osteo. I have heard they work miracles. You are are being superbrilliant you know xxxx

[Cosmosis]

Nighttimes are hardest for everyone I think rocket you are tired, baby is tired, everything seems worse in the dark. one thing i was told, which is always good advice is never to decide to stop bfing in the night.

[rocketleaf]

Oh I agree cos. Things always seem better during the day. It doesn't help that I am having quite disturbing dreams about babyleaf being taken off us. :-(
Not sure osteo was any revolution although she is opening her mouth much wider. She is still either shaking her head, crying or just sitting there with a mouth full of breast and not sucking. I am now really regretting the few days last week that I stopped trying to ut her on as she seems to have forgotten how to do it completely. I know it's useless and daft to have regrets and I had to do what I thought was right at the time.

[MadameBoo]

Rocket those disturbing dreams are common anyway, both me and the girl next door (ykwim) had them in the early days. I had two recurring ones, both oo horrific to repeat.

Sorry about lazy little leaf. Where is Mieta - she is sure to have some wise experience to impart.

And yes, don't beat yourself up. You are. like all of us, only doing your best. And whatever that is will always be good enough lovely xxxx

[PerfectDromedary]

Hey, rockstar. What a rollercoaster of emotions for you, pet. Just wanted to add my voice to the you're doing brilliantly chorus line. Will be thinking of you lots.

[Meita]

Rocket, the osteopath was good for us too, well it is hard to say, but it seems that things started getting better from then onwards. Could be just coincidence though. Are you going to go there again? We went twice overall. First time she said he was all scrunched up on one side, she said she'd tried to release the tension. Second time was just to check, she said things seemed good, and we needn't come back. Bless her honest soul :)

Regarding pumps, I have an electric avent pump, however switching to a double pump was a relevation. We picked one up from the local surestart centre, we rented it, for £5 for 6 months. Yes, that's a total of £5. Was not Medela but rather Ameda I think, but I think they're actually the same thing (perhaps Medela aimed at end-users, Ameda aimed at institutions or something). They're the ones they tend to use in hospitals. Admittedly, it's not very dignified to be sat there doubly attached, but well, I didn't care about dignity anymore, just about the sleep time it gained me. Also, I got more milk that way.
That said, many people find it more efficient to bf on one side whilst expressing on the other at the same time. It helps with the let-down, and is nice to have it both done at once. But I never managed the trick. It involves rugby-ball hold for the baby, which just never worked for me.

Hmm suckling laziness... you say she is not suckling at all? Is she creating the vacuum at all? We had times when he wouldn't go on properly (i.e. no vacuum) and then things are just a bit pointless. Perhaps you could try hand-expressing a little, getting the let-down going, and then sort of enticing her to go on... Don't know.
One thing our lactation consultant suggested to deal with him always falling asleep within (what felt like) seconds after latching on, was speed-boob-swapping. She said that with the initial let-down, the milk comes strong and fast, but then it evens out, and lazy baby might be too lazy (or too tired) to suckle to keep it going. So, as soon as baby is not doing right anymore (suckle suckle SWALLOW suckle suckle SWALLOW ifyswim) you take her off, put her on other side, and start again. Repeat. In time, she will get used to doing it right. (I found it hard to actually take him off. Finally he was on! Why take him off now? But I had to admit that he was not really on anymore, and it was actually pointless to just keep going... so, took him off and put him on other side although I knew it would be a struggle)
Also, she suggested to undress him. Suckling at the breast is so comforting, so add to that nice warm coziness, so of course he falls asleep. So for a while he would be just in his nappies to feed. It did help to keep him alert, I think.

One thought I might add: You say how you are trying to get her to latch on whenever she is awake. I can understand where you are coming from. But, and this is purely from my own experience: I found that if DS was not at all hungry, he wouldn't latch on, or wouldn't suckle. Just wouldn't. I found it very frustrating. HV comes along, asks me to feed him - wrong time, he won't. And it looks like I really haven't got a grip on the latch... when in fact the problem lies elsewhere.
Anyway, when he was not feeding despite screaming with hunger, that was one thing. But if I understand correctly, your daughter is now getting enough food. She is not starving. She may be sleepy and not feeding as often as you expect, but this does not now mean she is going hungry. When we were in that situation, it was important for us to feed when we were both relaxed and calm, AND he was starting to be hungry. One day I decided to de-stress. Not do anything else but concentrate on DS only. I watched him closely and offered him the breast whenever he made the slightest pretence of rooting, but calmly, not insisting - if he didn't want, he didn't have to. It took a while, maybe 5 or even 6 hours since the last big feed (which had actually been by tube) but then he did go on, and suckle, and feed. Not enough, I still had to top him up, but he did feed. That did wonders for my confidence and my nerves!

Do you offer her breast before feeding her by other means? If you do, I don't think you need to try to get her to bf in between. Just try to get the balance right, not to soon (she won't be hungry) and not too late (she'll be too upset to figure out something new). That means watching her carefully. Do you know the signs to look out for? (I'm not implying in any way that you're not doing that already, btw. Just asking.) It also means maybe letting go of some schedule you have been advised to use (like, every 3h or every 4h), at least temporarily. You know now that she's not starving. It doesn't matter if she has a few 'late' feeds as long as she doesn't go mad hungry.

One last thing: There are all kind of guidelines out there of how much, how often, how long a baby should feed. However, the ONLY way of judging if a baby is getting enough, is weight gain and general health. So. If she is gaining weight, she is getting enough. Knowing that might help you relax a bit (and relaxing is sooo conducive to better BF...). Don't let anyone pressurise you into feeding her more, or more often, based on guidelines... if she is gaining weight she is getting enough.

[crikeybadger]

How are things now rocketleaf?

Meita makes lots of good points and suggestions in her above post esp. the bit about not forcing things and switch nursing.

Did Ann have an idea about the lack of sucking? Was baby rocketleaf suctioned at birth? Sometimes, that can put them off sucking as it brings back the memory of something uncomfortable in their mouth.

Maybe, it's just a question of time that is needed. Time for rocketleaf to learn how to breastfeed and also time for her to grow so that things become easier.

One other thing that may be useful is a nursing supplementer. I know you've been finger feeding but with a SNS the tubes are attached to your nipples so the baby feeds from the breast and receives the added incentive of milk from the tube as well. Medela do one if you want to google it.


Hope you have a good day today.

[rocketleaf]

Mieta, sorry I didn't mean whenever she was awake. I meant when she was awake enough at the beginning of a feed. This seems to be happening more often as she gets older so thats good. I am going to try waiting til she really wants a feed this avo, keep up skin to skin and skip one session of expressing so that I have plenty of milk for her to latch on to. At the moment I dontbthink I am getting much of a let down even with compression so that might explain why she doesn't suck. Problem is I thought she was hungry before but now she's gone back to sleep!

Last night was better but possibly because we did one if te feeds from the bottle so it was easier on us.

Crikey, I've googled feeding supplimenter but surely for that to work she needs a good latch first.

[crikeybadger]

Yes,you're right, it might rocket, but it might encourage her to get a good latch as well. You probably don't need any more complications for now anyway.

[Cosmosis]

What about wiping a bit of ebm on your nipple before latching her on, it might give her a bit of encouragement to start actually suckling?

[rocketleaf]

I've been trying that. Half the time I am dripping it in her mouth and all over her face!!!

[Cosmosis]

:) oh well it's good for the skin too