Please help. I think i have ruined my chances of BFing my daughter :(

[rocketleaf]

Its a bit of a long story but basically I couldn't get my daughter to latch on after initially suckling after birth so thr MWs at the hospital had me extress colostrum to feed her with syringe. After that she was really sleepy and we couldnt get her to latch on. I had about 6 different people tell me different ways and things (for instance one said my nips are flat and use guards, another poo pooed that) but no one actually got her to suckle. In a weak moment i asked them to give her some formula by cup just so i could get some sleep as hadnt slept in about 4 days. In the end before they would discharge us they made us agree to do this complicated feed/give expressed/top up with formula routine every 3 hours, which stupidly we followed for about 3 feeds on wed night. I was really unhappy about this as i didnt want to bottle feed her let alone with formula ut they had really knocked my confidence and implied she would starve otherwise although i was still able to express colostrum.
When I saw my community MW yesterday morning she said it was bollocks and then SUre start came and they gave the same advice re positioning etc that i already l knew but doesnt seem to work with my DD and told me just to go with skin to skin and feed and combo express. All the stuff I thought I knew before going into hospital anyway.
Yesterday I decided it would be breast only, she started sucking and my milk came through so i thought we had turned a corner but then she became really rough, chomping on my nipples and really hurting and getting really distressed, coming off and on or stopping feeding. I have read loads of stuff on the internet and tried relatching and relatching again and again but still cant seem to get it right. Like she was really hungry and wanting to suck my not getting enough if any. I was still able to express some milk yesterday but we had to feed her all of that just toget her to sleep. It got to the point when she screamed everytime i took her near the breast. Last night we tried a bath together and that really helped her to calm down with me although i didnt really get her to feed agian. But it also woke her up so we had togove her all the xpressed milk and she still wouldnt sleep.

I have just got up because my breast were engorged again and my husband had brought her to bed after staying up with her to let me sleep. I have only managed to expressa 20 ml and its all ground to a halt. Breasts still engorged and nipples are wrecked. I dont know what I am gong to do when she wakes up wanting to be fed.

I never kidded myself that it would be easy but now am really worried that i have screwed up my milk supply, turned her into a ravenous beast with those few formula feeds and no idea what i am going to do when she wakes next.

I also dont think the pump i have is very good (avent) as it makes my nips bleed but maybe this is normal?

I know damn well that me being up at 4.30 stressing about this is not going to help but I can't help it. :( I really dont want to resort to formula but also am worried as she is only 5 days old that she will loose weight or be really stressed and over hungry. Sorry this is a bit incoherent too. Please help.

[macaroonmum]

Sounds positive Rocket!
Just take each day (hour?) as it comes.
xx

[Cosmosis]

That sounds like great progress rocket :)

[Meita]

Great news rocket. Keep it up, and remember that though there may yet be setbacks, you CAN do it.

Your DD being so small though, if you get worried, trust your instincts. In those early days there are things that might be going on in the background causing your baby's sleepiness, like an infection, and if untreated, things might get bad very quickly. We went to A&E because DS 'wasn't feeding right, and was sleepy all the time'. They took us seriously, we were seen immediately, no waiting, they said it was absolutely the right thing to do. Turned out that all he needed was top-ups due to messed up supply, due to earlier problems (he had had an infection at birth). However a friend's DS wasn't feeding and she just felt things were not quite right and it turned out he had a serious infection. Not meaning to scare you, just saying trust your instincts. That works the other way too - if people are telling you that you must feed your DD more, that things aren't ok simply because she isn't feeding every 3h, but your instincts tell you that actually, things are fine, then don't let people create unnecessary pressure for you. Remember, you know your baby best.

Some tips for now:
I found that to get DS to feed, we both had to be calm. Sometimes that meant letting the 3h 'slot' pass unused, waiting for the right moment. Sometimes it meant I had to be completely alone. Sometimes it meant I needed DP to be there, to carry DS around and bring him to me, then lift him to the other side, so that I didn't need to faff around.
Warming up your breasts is good for before feeding too, not just for before expressing.
Drink lots. Seriously, not drinking enough WILL limit your supply. And I second the fenugreek (you can buy capsules at Holland&Barrett).(But avoid mint tea, and sage.)
As much as sleeping in the night would be lovely, try to feed and/or express at least once between 2 and 5 am. That is excellent for keeping supply up. If you want to skip a feed, choose an early evening one instead.
If your breasts are engorged, it can help to hand-express a little off before starting BF.

And now some points for later, when/if you try to get your DD to breast only again:
Introducing something new such as breast only rather than bottle, works best when baby is NOT ravenously hungry and upset. DON'T think 'oh when DD is really hungry, she will feed' - when she is very hungry, she might be too upset or too weak to feed properly.
We were advised to drop one bottle-top-up at a time, not all at once. It meant longer hard work with expressing and bottle feeding, and every time we dropped a bottle, DS would be hungry all the time, but it worked. We did bottle top ups after every feed from 2.5 weeks until 4.5 weeks but by 9 weeks we were bottle free.

Oh and a reassuring story: You asked if you had ruined BF. Well a midwife tells the story of a lady who had her baby prematurely in France, at the time it was customary in France to give preemy mothers the injection that stops your milk coming in. She went to see said midwife when her baby was 8 weeks old, fully formula fed, and sad about it. Boy was she surprised when told she could still BF! With some work she got lactation started, gently got her baby used to the breast and weaned off the bottle, and at 5 months the baby was fully BF. The point being, your chances are never ruined. Perhaps things are harder now than they needed to be, but losing your supply because of 'having done it wrong so far' is never inevitable/irreversible.

Good luck!

[PerfectDromedary]

Just popping by to say that am thinking of you and hoping things are gradually improving. You're doing brilliantly.

[crikeybadger]

"Seriously, not drinking enough WILL limit your supply."

Seriously Meita, breastfeeding mothers only need to drink to thirst.

According to Kellymom,
"Unless you are severely dehydrated, drinking extra fluids is not beneficial, may cause discomfort, and does not increase milk supply."

Sorry to bang on about this (I posted previously about not needing to eat well to increase milk supply).

I just think it's important to bust these myths that potentially undermine breastfeeding.

Anyway, hope today has gone well for you rocket and things are getting better. Has DD been weighed since birth yet?

[japhrimel]

The one proviso too the above that I would add, from experience, is that before your supply is established, with a baby that is struggling to feed properly (so not enough of the best breast stimulation) stress, including dehydration and low blood sugar, can really impact supply. If you're in a pumping & top-ups situation with a newborn, your supply is so fragile.

[rocketleaf]

DD has been weighed twice, lost 8 pounds and gained 1 the next weigh. She is due to be weighed again on Tuesday so I am really hoping she will have put on again. But she looks very healthy tho and is sleeping for 3 hrs between feeds at night and feeding more often during the day for 10-15 mins each side, then little top ups.

We exclusively breastfed all feeds yesterday with varying degrees of success getting her on, a couple of times almost straight away. it still hurts which I know its not supposed to, left side is not as bad and seems t be improving but right nip is pretty bad. I hope this is just down to soreness of the nips. and maybe are a few issues with the fit (small mouth, big flat nipples) which has caused this and the initial problems I think plus all that mental hand and pump expressing a few days ago. Things are much better now I have the electric pump (thanks so much *cossie) although I havent been using it much as she has been feeding, is this wrong? My boobs are so sore it seems better to let them rest for the breastfeeding but I am a bit paranoid this is the wrong thing to do. My sister keeps telling me everything is fine but I am still finding it hard to believe :( BF councillor coming today so going to check the latch and about expressing.

[Tortoiseonthehalfshell]

Rocket, I had a very easy time with breastfeeding, but it still hurt like hell for the first 2 or 3 weeks, and every friend has said the same. Obviously I don't know what the pain is like for you, but please don't fall into the trap of thinking that because it's sore, the latch or something else must be wrong - it does take a while for the nipples to adjust. Not fun, but not indicative of a bigger problem. Given the rough time you've had, I think you're right to assume that it's a combination of factors, and the nipples will feel better soon.

You're doing brilliantly. BRILLIANTLY. If she's been feeding regularly then pumping is of less importance; it's a back up if feeding doesn't go well, not a primary too.

(You don't mean she lost 8 pounds though, do you? 8 ounces maybe?)

[NKinDXB]

Hi - I just want to add some encouragement too. I had totally easy time first time so caught off-guard with DD. She could latch properly but was a very angry, colicky little thing and chewed my nipples to death. I was in agony and tried everything from shields, expressing/bottles to keep things going. After 3 weeks the nipples suddenly healed up and she'd calmed down a bit and it's been plain sailing ever since (now 6 months in).

Your committment is to be admired and I really hope everything settles down soon. By the way, I'm not sure to what extent avoiding/eating certain foods is a myth, but the breastfeeding councillor at my hospital said that vanilla ice-cream makes your milk taste good! I'm willing to believe that! Good luck.

[Medee]

Great news rocket, keep it up. You are doing so well!

[rocketleaf]

Yes 8 oz!! I keep doing that :-). Ok that's good. I think I am going to try and express a 'back up bottle' during the day in case the night feeds don't go well bur nor worry if it doesn't happen. Milk is letting down quite well now abs even tho it might take 15 mins to get her on she seems full after 15 so I guess I should maximise the sleeping time!!

[crikeybadger]

Yes, stick with it rocket sounds like things are getting better each day.

well done.

[Tortoiseonthehalfshell]

It sounds like you've cracked it, to me. Well bloody done, woman.

[macaroonmum]

Rocket that's BRILLIANT!

I also had a fairly easy time with BF but remember that nips really hurt for a few weeks (I remember having showers nearly killing me!) so see how that goes - if you can, leave them out 'to air' (!) or slather on the nip cream - it WILL get easier.

You are doing SO well.

[MadameBoo]

So proud of you Rocket for sticking with it, you've been a DDHB all the way through all this baby stuff so far. How's MrR doing?

[Meita]

Great news Rocket, your doing so well!

(Crikeybadger, of course you are right. But I stick to the point that not drinking enough will limit your supply. Enough being to thirst, as you say, so we're not really disagreeing. However I found that when struggling with sleep deprivation and feeding/expressing/bottle top ups every three hours and the whole situation of new baby and and the sheer magnitude of it all, it was soooo easy to forget looking after myself. Easy to not drink despite thirst. When supply is yet to be established, a day of not drinking can really set you back! And I know plenty of people who don't drink despite thirst/never feel thirsty at all/only drink when someone puts something in front of them. Is all I'm saying.)

[Cosmosis]

rocket re the pump v the baby, the baby will be more efficient at getting milk out, so no, absoutely not wrong to not use it as much! So glad all is looking brighter.

[Grumpla]

Good luck Rocket it sounds like you are doing really well! Keep up the good work (and the chocolate! It may not be medically necessary but I'm fairly sure it's still pretty good!)

[sc2987]

I know you said she's been checked for tongue-tie, but if you are still in pain she may have a posterior tie, which most midwives/paeds don't know to look for. This happened with my daughter - none of the NHS staff spotted it, even when specifically looking for a tie. A lactation consultant from LLL diagnosed it, and referred us for division (which was finally done at 10 weeks and solved all our problems).

Here is a good article explaining each type: www.aap.org/breastfeeding/files/pdf/BBM-8-27%20Newsletter.pdf

[DorcasB]

At the risk of sounding like a broken record I would second sc2987 about making absolutely sure it's not a posterior TT. After I got my daughter latched on she fed very efficiently and despite an initial 10% loss of birth weight had regained it within the week and continued to put weight on. It was me that suffered as my nipples were so sore. By the time I got it diagnosed I had severe tissue loss and it took ages for them to heal. So... quite possibly it's not TT but worth ruling out so you don't end up in the same situation. DD was about 8 weeks before I started having pain free feeds. If it is TT then the sooner you get it sorted the better. Some things to watch out for are misshapen nipples after feeding, cracked nipples that wont heal despite her seeming to be latched on well and clicking sound when she's feeding. There are other symptoms too if you look on the TT thread.
Hope things have gone well today!

[NorkilyChallenged]

I'm sorry you're having a hard time rocketleaf and hope things continue to improve.

I'm here reading threads as DS1 is 2 days old, my milk came in today and my nipples are so incredibly sore I cannot bear the feeds any more. I'm at a loss what to do and feel I am jeopardising BF'ing. There's been some useful advice here but I'm going to do my own thread too as don't want to hijack yours.

It's so upsetting plus incredibly frustrating as I've successfully ebf'ed my 2 DDs so am just at a loss to be finding it so difficult now

[rocketleaf]

Thanks to both sc2987 and dorcas I will mention to the MW tomorrow and see what she thinks. Some of those symptoms sounds very familiar. the MW that came today said my latch looked spot on from the outside but its still agony to feed her and the nipples come out mishappen. Plus thereis a sound that could be described as clicking. Its getting worse not better and I am dreading the night feeds. Where would I find the TT thread?

norkiliy good luck on your own thread, I really hope that it passes very quickly for you.

[crikeybadger]

Here is the link to TT thread.

I'm pretty sure that the clicking is a sign of tt too.

Not all pcts believe in snipping tts, so if it is diagnosed, you may need to be pretty pushy to get it cut. You can get it done privately (some lactation consultants can do them) if funds permit.

good luck

[crikeybadger]

This page from the ibclc site may also be useful if it is found to be a tt.

Hope tonight goes ok.

[Cosmosis]

Clicking can definitely be a sign of a TT.