seeing thru the breastmilk propaganda

[thegauntlet]

Phew. It is really hard to see any impartial raw advice about the benefits or problems of weaning/ mixed feeding after 6 months.

Gorgeous girl is 5 and a half months, having a couple of teaspoons of baby rice now ( eek!) I am finding breastfeeding increasingly hard; since I had a horrid strep throat last week, and haven't actually slept for more than 4 hours at a stretch since she was born... my milk supply is duff. I am pumping like mad to try to get it better- and trying to get some rest and good food ( sod the diet for the time being!) so... I am thinking ( just thinking.... ) about follow on milk...

I dont want to feel guilty. Because once she has it I cant take it back....

My mum suggested cows milk ( i know!)
Im back to work when she is 7 months.I was planning on pumping.

So.... whats the evidence for the benefits of breast over anything else past 6 months please? ( be impartial.... breastfeeding milliants!)

laughinglil i don't believe that your experience debunks years of independent peer reviewed scientific study-me-bobs.

You have obviously made the right decision for you and your lo but it is misleading and patronising to suggest ff does not have negative repercussions for health though out life.

Countless studies show this.

I'm not saying that to try and make you feel bad. And i'm sure you wouldn't contradict the science just to make yourself feel better.

But you can bet that everyone reading this will think one of those is the case.

I am at a loss to know what Funny wants when she asks for impartial information, 'cos when she gets it, she doesn't like it.

It is impartial to report that there are no 'benefits' to formula feeding. That's why there was nothing in the column.

Why on earth if a mum is bf on discharge from hospital/midwife service would they spend time telling you how to ff? Should ff mums be told how to bf as well? What a waste of time teaching you about something you're not doing and in my case will not be doing at any point. (not being judgey or smug. Ff just isn't part of my parenting experience). Obviously if you are changing to ff then advice at that point could be useful but I think bf is undermined enough by stupid hcps without them telling bf mums about ff.

Breast feeding isn't like a force field around the baby keeping all bugs at bay, it doesn't mean there are not other benefits though.

jandmmum, I only just noticed your message to me so I would like to refer you to a couple of things. Gaelic asked me for info on the negatives of formula,

I replied:

Add message | Report | Message poster KickArseQueen Sun 07-Nov-10 22:24:22
You're welcome
They could be reffering to quite few different things, but you do know that this post is going to be the negatives of ff don't you??

My info is based on american research,

Do you really want to know?

Are you sure??

Gaelics reply:

Add message | Report | Message poster gaelicsheep Sun 07-Nov-10 22:35:40
I do, because I want to be informed.

So I reluctantly copied her the info that I have because she wanted it. She is an adult, should I have said no??? I have previously found very little info soley on the risks of mixed feeding over 6 months and I would presume (that risks would diminish with age /frequency etc.) Also if you have read through (which is always helpful before posting) you should be aware that I myself ff my dd2 when I went back to work for a month :)

If gaelic is going to go ahead and become a peer supporter then she is going to find out a lot more. Its also IMO very good to have mums who have mixed fed / struggled with breastfeeding becoming supporters. As a friend of mine who had sailed through breastfeeding without a squeak said, " Its easier for you to help people who are struggling! I never struggled!"

OTOH to me, she was the proof that it could be problem free with the right help. She's the only person I know who saw a breastfeeding midwife before she left hospital and who actually sat with her for a whole feed.

Alternatley please feel free to assume I am an evil internet sprite, that really is entirely your perogative.

Thanks for your concern jandmmum, but 'tis alright anyway. It isn't news to me, which is why I have spent so many years beating myself up about it. I'm still unsure on the risks after 6 months specifically, but that is only one of the issues I'm concerned with, as has been discussed previously.

A lovely mumsnetter (you know who you are) has sent me an electric pump which arrived today.

GS - firstly I would like to express my admiration for the determined way in which you want to use your BF experience to help other people. :)

Right - marathon cut and paste session ahead...

MoonFaceMamaaaaargh

[snip] it is misleading and patronising to suggest ff does not have negative repercussions for health though out life. [snip]

But, by the same rule, the way you have worded your post, it is slightly unfair to indicate formula WILL have a negative impact on a babies/childs health. Isn't it fairer to say formula has been linked to some conditions that may effect some children?

tiktok
[snip]It is impartial to report that there are no 'benefits' to formula feeding. That's why there was nothing in the column.[snip]

This is an interesting point, and if I am feeling (very very) brave later I may dedicate a post to this matter. I am very passionate about the fact there ARE benefits to FF. Dad gets to share special feed times - I remember my husbands face when he gave Alf his first bottle, he was pleased as punch. Formula gives an emotionally and physically drained mother the chance for a rest, even if it is just one feed. A rested happy mummy is surely more use to a baby then a frazelled wreck!!! Like I said, may dedicate a post to it later.

mollycuddles Wed 10-Nov-10 05:33:41
[snip] but I think bf is undermined enough by stupid hcps without them telling bf mums about ff. [snip]

This is so my point - giving advice/pointers on FF is NOT undermining BF. It is ensuring mothers are aware of the options and, at the very least, make up formula SAFELY, which is my prime concern. I remember cracking at about 12am, making the decision to FF and not having a bloody CLUE what to do. God knows how unsterile that first feed was. Makes me shudder when I think about it :(

We'll have to agree to disagree then. If bf is expected to be an ongoing successful experience then there is no need to tell bf mums about formula. And anyway for how long will someone retain the information given? The formula companies should be required to give explicit instructions so that it's not such a guessing game and a mum preparing formula for the first time knows exactly what to do. It's nobody but the formula companies who decide to put such vague information on the tins. And obviously they do so because doing it properly is a faff and explicit instructions might put some mums off ff. Mums planning to ff should be told by their hcp about preparing formula but mums who are bf and decide to start adding in or changing to formula at whatever stage need the information at the time they're introducing formula. If it's a planned thing they should be able to access the information from a hcp but that's not going to be possible if the first formula feed is in the middle of the night.

I didn't know exactly what do do - that is my point!! I really, really disagree with the principle of 'forcing' people into BF by withholding formula information, but then as you say we will have to agree to disagree as you seem to really, really disagree with giving mums information about formula in case they decide for whatever reason (however valid?????) to give formula a go :(.

But the reason you didn't know what to do is IMO the fault of the formula companies not putting explicit and safe instructions on formula. I can't see the point of telling mums how to prepare formula when it's not relevant to them at that time. People would not retain the information. The time when you need to know is when you're preparing formula for the first time and not weeks or months beforehand. I don't think ff mums should be denied information but telling a bf mum about ff is irrelevant and could be undermining because the subtext is that they need the information because they'll be using formula soon. Not what a new bf mum needs to hear. Proper written instructions to access at the relevant time is what is needed. This should be the responsibility of those profitting from formula.

to be fair as i've pointed out before the vast majority of babies in this country are formula fed

the reason we even need info sheets and support for people who want to breastfeed is because so few people do it and because it can be a lot more complicated than formula feeding.

people lack information on it because for such a long time formula feeding was totally the norm, and encouraged

formula feeding IS the norm in this country, hence there is little need for factsheets on it

toddlerwrangle, sorry i didn't mean to make it sound like a dead cert, oops.

However i do feel the risks are under played, especially by the "well mine are alright" brigade. Because, to be completely brutal about it, you don't know they are alright.

It isn't imo fairer to say that issues may effect some children, as some associated problems don't show up till adulthood.

And you don't know how many nights of minor but helish toddler illness might have been avoided by bf.

i have no doubt that we are still uncovering the risks of ff. New studies are done all the time.

Yes ff is the right choice for some mothers. But this choice needs to be made will full information.

No one should be told (as i have heard on here) that ff is just as good as bm. Your kids may seen alright but who knows what might happen to the lo's of the person being misled at that nonsense. I could not live with giving that sort of "advice"

If i ffed and my child developed am associated condition i would want to know that i had decided to ff after propely weighing the evidence. And by evidence i don't mean the laughinglil kind.

I agree with mollycuddles. Full info about making up formula should be on the formula.

Why this is so difficult for formula manufacturers is beyond me. Well, i have my suspicions.

To give bf mothers unsolicited info re ff is to reinforce the society wide impression that bf is "not enough", that they will "want" or "need" to ff at some point, and that ff is the norm.

toddlerwrangler - please do start a thread om this, as it is interesting :) There are no benefits to ff - in public health, general terms, that would fit a leaflet (which is what was under discussion).

The fact that some men want to give and enjoy giving a bottle of formula is an individual, personal reaction - not a benefit of ff. It is of no benefit to the baby. He/she can develop a relationship with his dad in many other ways.

Missing a breastfeed, even for a rest, by the woman has a downside - it can lead to discomfort and engorgement and difficulty in getting the baby attached. Done regularly, it can lead to lack of breastmilk.

This is not to say that for individuals there are no positives - but that's not what we were talking about.

Tiktok - I have had my brave juice (wine). Will post later.

Moonface - thanks for the clarification.

Others - Yes, you can print on the side of the steriliser how to sterilize bottle, and how to make up formula on the side of formula. This still didn't help me at 12am when my nerves were shattered and confidence at rock bottom. And then we come back to combine feeding - there is nothing out there to support mums who want to do this.

what other kind of information did you want?

"Others - Yes, you can print on the side of the steriliser how to sterilize bottle, and how to make up formula on the side of formula. This still didn't help me at 12am when my nerves were shattered and confidence at rock bottom. And then we come back to combine feeding - there is nothing out there to support mums who want to do this."

seriously, if you were this frazzled at 12 am, do you think you'd have had a good recollection of what was said about bottle feeding or combination feeding at the time? Even if it was that day?

I said something else but thought better of it and deleted.

It's no fun to be confused and upset at midnight, I agree....but how on earth would the hope that you remember a few verbal instructions given antenatally, or before leaving the maternity unit, weeks, even months before that moment, be better than reading the package in front of you???

I agree mothers who use formula whether solely or alongside breastfeeding need information and support on how to do it correctly and safely.

But there are safe and informative ways of doing this, and unsafe and uninformative ways of doing it.

It would have been nice to have had a professional, somewhere, confrim that, yes, you do XYZ and do ABC so that when I was making the formula up correctly, just like lots pof breastfeeders do?!!

FF may be more black and white then BF but that doesnt mean I dont have a right to be confident that I am doing things correctly and safely for my baby.

Foxy - please say whatever is is you want to say.

TickTok - I shan't bother with the 'No benefits to formula post'. Nothing good will come of it in this forum unfortuantly, which is a real shame.

Sorry, my post above should read

It would have been nice to have had a professional, somewhere, confrim that, yes, you do XYZ and do ABC so that when I was making the formula up I knoew I was doing it correctly. I just wanted a bit of support, just like lots pof breastfeeders do?!!

Of course you should have that confidence, and that support, and that information, toddlerwrangler! No one says you shouldn't. You and your baby need it!

What you can't have is someone with you at midnight, standing and confirming that what you are doing it fine and correct and safe.

Breastfeeding women don't have that either!

And it's the 'it's midnight, I'm upset, and I don't know what to do!' scenario that you were describing, yes?

toddlerwrangler - every so often there is a thread in this folder where mothers post about why they felt formula was the right choice for them, and why they liked it. No one minds, and why should they?

You will get some discussion if you try to generalise out from a personal experience.

For instance, you said 'dad gets to share special feed times' as if this was unique to ff, as if dads of breastfed babies cannot share in special feed times, just by supporting and doing stuff the mother cannot do 'cos she's feeding.

Fathers do not have to do the feeding in order to bond, or to enjoy special times with their babies.

Yes, it was the scenario I described Tiktock, you are right.

I think I'm not explaining myself well (I am admittedly the least articulate person in the world!!!). Even if I had cracked (and believe me I cracked in spectacular style!!) at 12pm rather then 12am I do personally think it would have been nice to have had a prefessionals words sitting at the beck of my mind somewhere, just so I knew I was on roughly the right track.

Maybe its just my personaility - I like to get everything 'right'. I think maybe if you all knew a bit more about my PND/confidence crisis/BF breakdown you would maybe understand my point a bit more, but it is a boaring story for you all. Its just, like many of you (very rightly) want to give BF mums support due to the lack of support you had initially, I feel this way about FF/combined feeding because of my experience.

Sorry, I don't mean to bore you all and I cant seem to do right for wrong in this particular forum so I shall bow out as I an to new to make waves.

I do understand your message, toddlerwrangler, honest I do....and I'm sorry you had a rotten experience.

But it is simply not safe for mothers to rely on a professional's words sitting at the back of someone's mind somewhere.

This is one of the reasons why UNICEF Baby Friendly proscribes group instruction in ff, and instruction in ff to women who are bf. The work done on this reveals that people do not remember correctly. The words might st somewhere at the back of the mind, but they may not be the right words :)

I think what you are intending to say is 'I wish I had heard from a professional that if I had to formula feed, it was ok to do so and not to worry about it too much' - I think thats more likely than wanting to know about ounces and boiling and teats and things...but tell me I'm wrong if I am :)

toddlerwrangle I've been there with bf failure, meltdown (although in waking hours), unhappily starting ff and PND with ds. It was dreadful so I do understand. Because of this I feel strongly that formula labelling should be clearer. I couldn't do the first bottles at all. I was too upset tbh. Dh calmly did it though which was good. The labels I feel are deliberately vague. I would have needed words of one syllable and step by step instructions with explanations. You should be able to access ff and mixed feeding advice from hcps but I don't think there is benefit in this being doled out to everyone as too much information especially when it's not all relevant will cause confusion. I don't know what the answer is.