OK, I get BF, but am totally fucked off with the smugness

[FunnysInTheGarden]

Most of us are failed BF, but the tone on here recently has really pissed me off. We generally FF? Non? So why the smug shit and the passive aggressiveness towards those who have to/chose to FF?

So tempted to name names, but I won't.

Just stop being so smug and holier than thou please, some people

I don't really know Aitch, I've just seen my friend buying loads of Evian bottles because she was told to. It's annoying if you don;t drive or are on a budget. We have perfectly good tap water to drink.

and i think evian is an okay one, but there are other bottled waters that have too much salt for using every day. how incredibly irritating for your friends.

how well bonded is the BF baby whose mum has PND or is resentful and stressed at the difficulty of BF and father has no look in as mum is determined to EBF no matter. I personally find staring into DDs eyes whilst she takes a bottle more bonding than sticking her on my chest where I can't see her face do just end up watching tv. Yes BF us best when it works and everyone should be given the support to try but we shouldn't tell mothers who can't that they are going to cause all these problems by FF when sometimes FF is the right way to go for that family and sometimes is a necessity rather than choice.

But mumsnetting watching TV when bfing is one of the benefits of bfing!

And as for the men, there are plenty of nappies for them to change

oh god, completely, jandnmum... totally agree. i speak as a spectactularly useless bfer, absolutely hilariously bad, both times my dds were topped up pretty much from the beginning and i struggled on cack-handedly for a few months, pumping round the clock etc etc. it's just not possible for everyone, in the world we live in and with scarce support resources. but it should be possible for more of us, i think, and it's a shame that people feel bad about it not working out, because it might have with more support.

but like i say, there comes a time when you just have to Get Over It and move on. and it's then that you realise (again speaking from experience) that a lot of what you have been saying about smug bfers is a load of self-hating shite.

this is a bizarre thread. the OP is anti BMA and pro Danone (for example) as if Danone give a crap about anything but making loads of cash.

and the name calling of BFers in this thread is reprehensible. 'over zealous evangelical warriors.armed with spurious research from shitsville uni' scottishmummy that is so uncalled for. most people with this 'zeal' you speak of do nothing but good in a really really stoopid situation.

it is staggering the amount of failed BFers (your words, not mine) that just accept the lamentable injustices that are so painfully obvious to those 'BFing Nazis' (people are STILL using this disgusting label ) amongst us.

mildly and at OP.

People come here for support and information on feeding their baby, bf or ff. There are a good few posters who give up their time to provide advice and accurate information/support to those who request it. Personal attacks are not called for or acceptable.

Personally I don't care how people feed their own children, as long as they have had the right information and the support.

People are always going to be opinionated, whether you breastfeed or formula feed.

It is a personal choice at the end of the day and we should show support to anyone looking for it.

In saying that it, breastmilk is made and produced by your body for the baby you have just given birth to, hence this is the better of the two.

However I do not under any circumstances think that formula is bad for a baby or the wrong alternative!

Agree to disagree? (blush)

It is completely out of order to rage against BF mums. To start a thread to try discredit others.

it's not so much out of order as a bit embarrassing... she'll be mortified in a year's time, guaranteed.

a vociferous minority are over zealous,and can be alienating to mums.and yes on occasion use research to berate and hector.and it is that over zealous stance that so upsets some mums.so no,not all bf supporters do good- a great deal do yes.but a vocal vociferous minority also do harm too.

as attested when people state their pov on these matters

as attested by about three people who will get over it soon enough and realise that they were angry at all the wrong folk. the vast majority on this thread don't know what funny is talking about.

and i have never, ever seen any bfer berate a ffer, that's just absolute rubbish sm. what would they be berating them for? ffing? i hardly think so. or for being a pita and insulting people while not even bothering to read the research that is in front of them at their own request? you'd think maybe some berating would be in order tbh, but the insults on this thread are very much against bfers rather than towards wilfully ignorant ffers. i suspect that is because we mostly do know where funny's anger is coming from. i certainly do.

no it isnt aitch.i have been on mn long enough to know bf/ff=aggro.humphy faces - so you may take issue with what i am saying but that is my observation.its a mn perennial pattern.and dont ask me to link threads or owt because im not going to

perhaps a reflective moment,of why does this topic get so contentious and provocative? likely is that the vociferous minority have made some mums feel bad.

"The quoted Scottish study is based entirely on statistics of the observations when undoubtedly there will be confounding factors and differences in the two populations."

jannmum The Dundee Study was adjusted for confounding factors. It has also withstood peer review. This is why it is so robust and is cited many times even in serious papers, nationally and internationally. If you can find something out there that questions its robustness, please share it with us.

and of course it is based on statistics and observations. No one will be able to ethically do a randomised control trial because you cannot make a parent bottle feed as much as you can't make another person breastfeed.

Also the UK is one of the countries with the best records of reliable statistics. It certainly doesn't mean that this is some sort of weakness. Likewise the methodology of observational studies can be assessed or its robustness. Once more, if you can find anything that questions the methodology, let us know.

likely is is that people feel like absolute shit because they have nurtured their children inside them for nine months and then cannot, for reasons that are entirely beyond their control, continue to feed their babies with their own bodies and must instead reach for a tub of formula which, let us be honest, we know isn't as good a product as we are manufacturing for ourselves. it is frustrating and heart-breaking, and it's entirely valid to be unhappy about that.

to blame your unhappiness on a couple of bfers on a website speaking to you in the wrong tone of voice is just a bit silly and embarrassing, tbh. it's so much more than that.

Anyway, I am offski now.

Seems ridiculous to me to decide all bf research is meaningless because it's not randomised and controlled. None of the research on smoking, obesity, high cholesterol is truly randomised so I guess we may as well smoke and eat what we like...

It makes me sad to see on here that some people feel like they are being told that FF will make their baby ill. Whether this is the case or whether they have misinterpreted information, it is simply not true. Formula will not make your baby ill, however BF will boost their immune system. Therefore a baby who is BF is less likely to suffer certain illnesses than a baby who is FF.

It is like anything else where statistics are used;
'Secondary school aged boys are better at science than girls'
'Oh, but my little girl is brilliant at science so that can't be true'

There are always exceptions and as someone said earlier, with our clean water and access to steralising products, plus education on how to safely prepare bottles, FF is as safe as BF. It is unrealistic to think that FF will actively protect your child from some illnesses, though, which BF does.

Don't know if that makes any sense...

Tabouleh - that fearless formula feeders blog made me cry - such a sad story in the latest post.

and what aitch says

"likely is is that people feel like absolute shit because they have nurtured their children inside them for nine months and then cannot, for reasons that are entirely beyond their control, continue to feed their babies with their own bodies and must instead reach for a tub of formula which, let us be honest, we know isn't as good a product as we are manufacturing for ourselves. it is frustrating and heart-breaking, and it's entirely valid to be unhappy about that."

totally totally agree with this.

I had an assisted delivery with DS, and felt like a total failure of a woman and mother because I couldn't give birth naturally and drug free. So breastfeeding became important to me (I had already decided to try Bfing, but wasn't too hung up on it) - had a few grim weeks with a child who would not sleep at all, and who fed constantly - all the while my mum friends were switching to formula, getting time to themselves, sleeping etc etc. All kept saying to me I should give up bfing and get a break. But no, I'm too stubborn, and I wanted to succeed at something. And I must say, a year on with no sleep, I don't feel that successful, but also can't see the point in giving up now. But don't feel smug at all!

The biggest feeding issue at the moment is the genuine feelings of guilt and utter uselessness and helplessness felt by those who 'fail' to BF. It's the NHS going on and on about how great BF is and then providing you with no practical help whatsoever to establish it. Not mentioning cluster feeding, growth spurts. Discouraging co-sleeping, some areas completely refusing to deal with tongue ties etc etc. Then you find yourself FF'ing, too embarrassed to feed in public because you think everyone's judging you, blame yourself for every sniffle/rash your child gets ('is my fault I didn't BF for long enough'). And I bet BF'ers don't feel much better supported either. It's not about what people say on a message forum - it's a much bigger problem. There was a lady at a group I went to who was asked, quite innocently how she fed and burst into tears and then told us this really long story about how hard she'd found BF'ing, repeated mastitis etc because she just didn't feel able to say that she FF'ed without saying why. It's really sad. There are people here who are out of order and seem to take pleasure from pointing out how bad formula is but there are also some who are very helpful. It's about protecting mums when they are at their most emotionally vulnerable and thinking before you speak. That doesn't mean you can't state the facts - just be careful how you do because the current situation is helping no one.

Sorry, going back to the 2 year thing- where exactly have you seen bf mums berate or be smug about bf til 2 towards mums who don't? I am considered absolutely fruit the bloody loop for feeding DS who is nearly 2, and this is by far the prevailing attitude in the UK.

This is a really angry thread and like the recent spate of SAHM/working mum threads just seems so sad and unhelpful.

Whereas by and large this section of mn is supportive and helpful- recently read a thread started by a woman who wanted to stop bf, she stated in her op she was clear about her wish to stop, and received (I hope, as I posted) plenty of helpful advice and experiences, and nothing whatsoever about continuing.

You can't always have a placebo controlled trial...

I know a kid who was ff, he has asthma, eczema and has always got something wrong with him. He is having problems at school.

I know another who was bf, he's slim and healthy and got a first from Cambridge and is now a Fellow there.

Anecdotes mean nothing unless you get a lot of them, verify them and do a proper study.

But I feel the only evidence the op would accept is something that verifies her own ideas. My suggestion is that she do her own study.

ff/bf and sahm/working are mn perennials.the argy bargy threads.indicative of how much significance we place upon how we raise and feed our children

and ultimately we make choices and try do best thing.not all folk will likey those choices,but we do what works for us

no, that's not the point at all. for so many of us it's NOT a choice, whether to work or stay at home, or to bf or not... tbh it's when people start talking about them as if we have an option that feelings start to get badly hurt.

I am so pleased that there is support for bf-ers on here because I haven't found a lot in real life - maybe it's where I live but ff is definitely the norm round here. At the baby group I go to I am the only one who is exclusively bf-ing at 5 months.

Ok, I agree that some people on here come on a bit strong with their pro-bf stance BUT in my opinion the balance is much too far the other way in real life. I was so surprised that my HV suggested I give a formula bottle at night when dd was about 6 weeks. I've come across so many new mums who genuinely seem to believe that they didn't have enough breastmilk or that their milk wasn't satisfying baby. And I never seem to come across other bf-ers feeding while out and about so at times I have felt quite isolated. At my local breastfeeding cafe there was usually only 2 or 3 others there.

If we lived in a true bf-ing culture (see other thread) there would be no need for the more impassioned pro-bfing comments on here but imo we need posters like Stealth polar bear, Moon faced mama (sorry can't remember other names) on here to push bf - if they come across as smug to ff-ers then just don't come on this topic.

What is wrong with promoting bf on here - surely this is the place to do it!